Pandering to the lowest common denominator is always a losing battle
Sooner or later everything is offensive to someone somewhere
Do you support the ban of logos referring to natives in sports clubs?
- Thread starter Zaibetter
- Start date
Sooner or later everything is offensive to someone somewhere
I'm sure some care carrying member of MAD who's parents were killed by a drunk driver could protest the BrewersAs someone who likes to drink, I'm deeply offended by the Milwaukee Brewers.
I'm gonna start a petition to have their name changed.
Also my last name is King. I want Sacramento Kings to change their name, as its deeply offensive to me
Kings are very offensive, look at the shit they pulled in the past
Thinking they all close to God and doing whatever they feel like
Stop the liberal apologist busProbably because white people aren't a marginalized group who're actively oppressed (See: Residential School, Colonization, MMIW, Environmental racism, Film representation, Police brutality, Workplace discrimination, Hiring discrimination, the 60s Scoop, Poverty, Redface, Slavery, Land rights, Suicide rates.. Need I go on?) nor have most people even heard of that. Nor is it something said oppressive group says is your designated monicker (which it's rooted in colonial violence) and when you argue it, they come up with these awful false equivalences and other logical fallacies as an attempt to justify it, all the while speaking over you.
Seriously
The Indians were basically conquered like it or not
Canada gave them special rights instead of committing genocide
There are more Indians living off the reservation doing "white people things" today than staying on their land
In addition quite frankly I have very little respect for any race that sits back complaining about the past because let's face it, EVERY PERSON faced SERIOUS discrimination back in the day.
One needs only look at how groups like Irish, Italians, Portugese etc were discriminated against even to this day (mafia or drunk jokes anyone)
If you want to take up this beef go to the UK and petition the Queen since no Canadian had anything to do with half the shit people are crying about (& I think both Asians and Blacks would contest their abuse was worse than what Indians had; they both even need to pay HST today)
Well put.Stop the liberal apologist bus
Seriously
The Indians were basically conquered like it or not
Canada gave them special rights instead of committing genocide
There are more Indians living off the reservation doing "white people things" today than staying on their land
In addition quite frankly I have very little respect for any race that sits back complaining about the past because let's face it, EVERY PERSON faced SERIOUS discrimination back in the day.
One needs only look at how groups like Irish, Italians, Portugese etc were discriminated against even to this day (mafia or drunk jokes anyone)
If you want to take up this beef go to the UK and petition the Queen since no Canadian had anything to do with half the shit people are crying about (& I think both Asians and Blacks would contest their abuse was worse than what Indians had; they both even need to pay HST today)
Then add the constant racist BS trotted out here about how whites are supposed to `feel` about being responsible for every wrong doing committed against Native Canadians and blacks, I am NOT responsible, my mother was not responsible.
Drop the racist bull shit.
How many caricatures/images of brave Chinese dudes are visible everyday in every form of media,...and yet,...
I guess the Edmonton Eskimos will be next,...why,...???
And hey,...what about the New York Yankees,...I mean,...just how insensitive is that,...???
FAST
Thanks, Camilla.
Canada really isn't that far removed from the days of colonization. I worked with an Inuit woman whose mother had a government issued id number tattooed on her. So many from the res' suffer from the cultural genocide, the near total destruction of native cultures, from languages to lifestyles, which were the real goals of the residential schools. There are some small signs of progress, from the deal the liberals just announced with the Algonquin peoples to the growing acknowledgements of native land rights in schools, theatres, shows around the country. But the issues are immense, how do you restore a culture that was nearly destroyed, how do you restore those cultures without totally cutting yourself off from the country. How do you help modernize communities that are remote and hard to service while respecting their own rights of self determination.
There is much to do, and from the general tone of this board so much to do from the non-native community to recognize those issues and help restore those cultures. Respect would be a good place to start, certainly here.
Canada really isn't that far removed from the days of colonization. I worked with an Inuit woman whose mother had a government issued id number tattooed on her. So many from the res' suffer from the cultural genocide, the near total destruction of native cultures, from languages to lifestyles, which were the real goals of the residential schools. There are some small signs of progress, from the deal the liberals just announced with the Algonquin peoples to the growing acknowledgements of native land rights in schools, theatres, shows around the country. But the issues are immense, how do you restore a culture that was nearly destroyed, how do you restore those cultures without totally cutting yourself off from the country. How do you help modernize communities that are remote and hard to service while respecting their own rights of self determination.
There is much to do, and from the general tone of this board so much to do from the non-native community to recognize those issues and help restore those cultures. Respect would be a good place to start, certainly here.
Slippery slope argument my friend. Try again.Pandering to the lowest common denominator is always a losing battle
Sooner or later everything is offensive to someone somewhere
Going on the past crimes tangent is not fruitful can we just agree to disagree on that.Stop the liberal apologist bus
Seriously
The Indians were basically conquered like it or not
Canada gave them special rights instead of committing genocide
There are more Indians living off the reservation doing "white people things" today than staying on their land
In addition quite frankly I have very little respect for any race that sits back complaining about the past because let's face it, EVERY PERSON faced SERIOUS discrimination back in the day.
One needs only look at how groups like Irish, Italians, Portugese etc were discriminated against even to this day (mafia or drunk jokes anyone)
If you want to take up this beef go to the UK and petition the Queen since no Canadian had anything to do with half the shit people are crying about (& I think both Asians and Blacks would contest their abuse was worse than what Indians had; they both even need to pay HST today)
The core issue is a team refusing to change its name and using a racial cariacature for a mascot.
What harm would come from changing the name or at least updating the logo? The blackhawks did an excellent job of the native art stylized hawk head to replace the native head.
The other problem is that people are dismissing the complaints and the people making the complaints. Of course it doesn't bother you (the non native) but maybe for them just knowing that a team uses a cartoon version of them bothers them because of all it represents. To you it is just a symbol but for them it has a whole different meaning.
The whole if "we" give in mentality is fucked up because it maintains an "us" against "them" attitude.
Would it really bother you so much that a racist cartoon and outdated term is replaced with something else?
Why not......
Ohio State Symbols
• Ohio's State Bird - Cardinal (pictured at right)..... obviously that one won't work as it is taken by St Louis
• Ohio's State Tree - Buckeye
• Ohio's State Flower - Red Carnation
• Ohio's State Animal - White Tail Deer
• Ohio's State Insect - Ladybug
To be clear I am somewhere in the middle on this. I would prefer a more stylized and heroic looking mascot if it must stay as a native. As for name why not use an actual tribe name to honour local tribes (with their permission of course)? But like I said before why not a bird, flower or something else?
The fighting irish is fine because the NCAA has not received any complaints from any irish groups. Can't say the same for Indians.
I dont see that at all. I basically just see a happy native-Indian getting ready to beat the crap out of the opposing team.But back to the topic at hand, another issue that Indigenous people face is racist misrepresentation and people trying to justify their unpleasant feeling about it with these awful excuses. Most Native people look literally NOTHING like "Chief Wahoo". It's a complete caricature (big beak nose, bright red skin, feather, cheeky cartoon smile? He's basically a Native gollywog)
I guess a lot of things in life are Rorschach tests. Its whatever you want to see into it
Are you saying it's just all in their (people offended by the logo) head?I dont see that at all. I basically just see a happy native-Indian getting ready to beat the crap out of the opposing team.
I guess a lot of things in life are Rorschach tests. Its whatever you want to see into it
Stop the liberal apologist bus
Seriously
The Indians were basically conquered like it or not
Canada gave them special rights instead of committing genocide
There are more Indians living off the reservation doing "white people things" today than staying on their land
In addition quite frankly I have very little respect for any race that sits back complaining about the past because let's face it, EVERY PERSON faced SERIOUS discrimination back in the day.
One needs only look at how groups like Irish, Italians, Portugese etc were discriminated against even to this day (mafia or drunk jokes anyone)
If you want to take up this beef go to the UK and petition the Queen since no Canadian had anything to do with half the shit people are crying about (& I think both Asians and Blacks would contest their abuse was worse than what Indians had; they both even need to pay HST today)
I've quietly asked myself and others in confidence, without appearing callous, these following questions, so I can understand why there is a problem with the discrimination and its effects issue:
a) My folks came from war torn Italy in the 50s, were discriminated against (called DPs - some arrested for walking on the wrong side of the street lol), and worked hard to build what they have today and more. Why are a lot of indigenous people, who are not immigrants, still in poverty or live in the conditions they do? Why have they not integrated with the rest of society?
b) The Romans conquered Europe & beyond 2,000 years ago or so, and yet, do we ask Italy for reparations, or blame them? Is conquest a part of life, so suck it up? (Some argue that the Romans brought civility to other parts of the world, or introduced people to some type of modernism).
c) It has been argued that the White man took their way of life. Then why can Indigenous people not live and adapt on their own with the lands granted to them, as their forefathers did, instead of rely on public assistance?
My own answers are:
a) They are discriminated or marginalized more than White Europeans. The Reservations do not help integrate them into mainstream society but isolate them.
b) The Roman Empire rose and fell, and it is ancient history. The conquest ramifications are negligible and forgotten, and future generations have moved on. The history of the White Man's treatment of Indigenous People is much more recent.
c) We displaced the aboriginals or First Nation people, put them out of their element, and took their best lands to exploit and settle on. Their original way of life was disrupted.
Maybe some of you, including Camilla, can better answer some of my questions above.
Thanks.
I'm with you on all your suggestions.Going on the past crimes tangent is not fruitful can we just agree to disagree on that.
The core issue is a team refusing to change its name and using a racial cariacature for a mascot.
What harm would come from changing the name or at least updating the logo? The blackhawks did an excellent job of the native art stylized hawk head to replace the native head.
The other problem is that people are dismissing the complaints and the people making the complaints. Of course it doesn't bother you (the non native) but maybe for them just knowing that a team uses a cartoon version of them bothers them because of all it represents. To you it is just a symbol but for them it has a whole different meaning.
The whole if "we" give in mentality is fucked up because it maintains an "us" against "them" attitude.
Would it really bother you so much that a racist cartoon and outdated term is replaced with something else?
Why not......
Ohio State Symbols
• Ohio's State Bird - Cardinal (pictured at right)..... obviously that one won't work as it is taken by St Louis
• Ohio's State Tree - Buckeye
• Ohio's State Flower - Red Carnation
• Ohio's State Animal - White Tail Deer
• Ohio's State Insect - Ladybug
To be clear I am somewhere in the middle on this. I would prefer a more stylized and heroic looking mascot if it must stay as a native. As for name why not use an actual tribe name to honour local tribes (with their permission of course)? But like I said before why not a bird, flower or something else?
The fighting irish is fine because the NCAA has not received any complaints from any irish groups. Can't say the same for Indians.
It might interest people to know that the cartoonish logo was not the original logo and for 31 years the team existed with other less racist variantsI with you on all your suggestions.
And it did not appear on a cap until the team had been around for 39 years.
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/57/Cleveland_Indians/
So if we are going to go on that tradition/history angle I think it's important to know that the first 3 decades of the team was without the cartoon logo.
If we are to look at the honour angle..... then we have to examine and say is the way in which natives are being "honoured" is respectful?
Wahoo looks more like a bugs bunny villain than he does something you'd wear with pride.
It's not enough to just do something and claim you are honouring someone. If I painted myself red to say I was honouring Indians I think it would only be valid if the Indians I chose to honour did that...... same goes with wearing feathers and head dresses. In fact if I am not mistaken some head dresses are very special and not to just be worn around like you would your favourite ball cap.
I think it is fair to say little research is done by the team or fans to demonstrate that a true honouring of Indians is occurring.
I can't name the natives indigenous to our area and I would be shocked if Ohioans could name the three original tribes plus the four or five that moved in after being displaced.
Wahoo looks more like a bugs bunny villain than he does something you'd wear with pride.
It's not enough to just do something and claim you are honouring someone. If I painted myself red to say I was honouring Indians I think it would only be valid if the Indians I chose to honour did that...... same goes with wearing feathers and head dresses. In fact if I am not mistaken some head dresses are very special and not to just be worn around like you would your favourite ball cap.
I think it is fair to say little research is done by the team or fans to demonstrate that a true honouring of Indians is occurring.
I can't name the natives indigenous to our area and I would be shocked if Ohioans could name the three original tribes plus the four or five that moved in after being displaced.
I've really tried hard to take all emotion and insults to those that disagree away from this and to look at it in three ways
1) the effects of alternate mascots (will the team and fans really be affected by a change?)
2) tradition (go back to the logos used for the first 30 years of the team's history)
3) honouring Indians (it is not enough to claim you are honouring you need to do it in an authentic and accurate manner)
I think I've presented a pretty strong case.
But most importantly there needs to be a shift in the divisive thinking which leads people to think of the complainers as "them"
1) the effects of alternate mascots (will the team and fans really be affected by a change?)
2) tradition (go back to the logos used for the first 30 years of the team's history)
3) honouring Indians (it is not enough to claim you are honouring you need to do it in an authentic and accurate manner)
I think I've presented a pretty strong case.
But most importantly there needs to be a shift in the divisive thinking which leads people to think of the complainers as "them"
Those questions are certainly worth asking.I've quietly asked myself and others in confidence, without appearing callous, these following questions, so I can understand why there is a problem with the discrimination and its effects issue:
a) My folks came from war torn Italy in the 50s, were discriminated against (called DPs - some arrested for walking on the wrong side of the street lol), and worked hard to build what they have today and more. Why are a lot of indigenous people, who are not immigrants, still in poverty or live in the conditions they do? Why have they not integrated with the rest of society?
b) The Romans conquered Europe & beyond 2,000 years ago or so, and yet, do we ask Italy for reparations, or blame them? Is conquest a part of life, so suck it up? (Some argue that the Romans brought civility to other parts of the world, or introduced people to some type of modernism).
c) It has been argued that the White man took their way of life. Then why can Indigenous people not live and adapt on their own with the lands granted to them, as their forefathers did, instead of rely on public assistance?
My own answers are:
a) They are discriminated or marginalized more than White Europeans. The Reservations do not help integrate them into mainstream society but isolate them.
b) The Roman Empire rose and fell, and it is ancient history. The conquest ramifications are negligible and forgotten, and future generations have moved on. The history of the White Man's treatment of Indigenous People is much more recent.
c) We displaced the aboriginals or First Nation people, put them out of their element, and took their best lands to exploit and settle on. Their original way of life was disrupted.
Maybe some of you, including Camilla, can better answer some of my questions above.
Thanks.
It may seem like a cop out but I think each problem or situation has it's own variables.
If anything I would say that with any sort of situation with many variables it is very hard to produce the same results over the same time period.
I do have an answer for c) a friend of mine did some work up north and lived in a res. These people were displaced a great distance which means their traditions and skills were suited for a different area. Imagine you are a forest ranger who is dropped into a desert. Sure some skills are transferable but others are not.
Frankcastle in #100 above
Ohio State Symbols
• Ohio's State Bird - Cardinal (pictured at right)..... obviously that one won't work as it is taken by St Louis
• Ohio's State Tree - Buckeye (Won't work taken by Ohio State University)
• Ohio's State Flower - Red Carnation
• Ohio's State Animal - White Tail Deer
• Ohio's State Insect - Ladybug
Still say it isn't so much the name as it is "Chief Wahoo."
Ohio State Symbols
• Ohio's State Bird - Cardinal (pictured at right)..... obviously that one won't work as it is taken by St Louis
• Ohio's State Tree - Buckeye (Won't work taken by Ohio State University)
• Ohio's State Flower - Red Carnation
• Ohio's State Animal - White Tail Deer
• Ohio's State Insect - Ladybug
Still say it isn't so much the name as it is "Chief Wahoo."
Depends if OSU has a copyright on it.Frankcastle in #100 above
Ohio State Symbols
• Ohio's State Bird - Cardinal (pictured at right)..... obviously that one won't work as it is taken by St Louis
• Ohio's State Tree - Buckeye (Won't work taken by Ohio State University)
• Ohio's State Flower - Red Carnation
• Ohio's State Animal - White Tail Deer
• Ohio's State Insect - Ladybug
Still say it isn't so much the name as it is "Chief Wahoo."
For example you have the LSU Tigers and the Detroit Tigers. So it might be okay. I figured it was as there are a number of teams in different sports, cities etc that share the same name.
I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I thought 'displaced' was a good reason.Those questions are certainly worth asking.
It may seem like a cop out but I think each problem or situation has it's own variables.
If anything I would say that with any sort of situation with many variables it is very hard to produce the same results over the same time period.
I do have an answer for c) a friend of mine did some work up north and lived in a res. These people were displaced a great distance which means their traditions and skills were suited for a different area. Imagine you are a forest ranger who is dropped into a desert. Sure some skills are transferable but others are not.
Loser lolResidential schools (filled with rape, murder, starvation, beatings, forced assimilation) are from only maybe 50 years ago. My grandmother is a residential school survivor.
My father was part of the 60's scoop where children were taking out of their homes.
*drops mic*
Lots of pointless BS that shows how little you know but these 2 jumped out at me
Back in that time frame 10 year old white kids got sent to work in coal mines
Black kids were enslaved and savagely beaten
And Asian kids had land taken from them and were incarcerated without cause based on an assumption they could be spies
All within last hundred years
So cry me a river how hard your granny had it
Most of them would be better off if they kicked the tobacco and alcohol issues
You do understand most people offended by the mascot are white males right? (eg the recent lawsuit)Are you saying it's just all in their (people offended by the logo) head?
Indians might claim to be offended but noone ever speaks up
And am I the only one who sees the absurdity in filing a lawsuit in ON when the team is based in the state of OH?
Not even same country
