Air India Crash

[unassuming]

London bound Air India jet crashes in heavy populated area shortly after take off, 1 Canadian aboard among 242 passengers.
It's a Boeing

Canadian among 242 passengers on U.K.-bound plane that crashed in India after takeoff

An Air India passenger plane bound for London with more than 240 people on board crashed Thursday in India’s northwestern city of Ahmedabad, the airline said.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[nottyboi]

London bound Air India jet crashes in heavy populated area shortly after take off, 1 Canadian aboard among 242 passengers.
It's a Boeing

Canadian among 242 passengers on U.K.-bound plane that crashed in India after takeoff

An Air India passenger plane bound for London with more than 240 people on board crashed Thursday in India’s northwestern city of Ahmedabad, the airline said.

www.ctvnews.ca

Horrific, I believe this is the first Boeing 787 crash.

 

[stinkynuts]

The terror of the pilots knowing it was the end.

 

[stinkynuts]

Terrifying CCTV footage of Air India crash

This terrifying new footage shows the ill-fated Air India jet taking off and then falling from the sky seconds later as it seems to lose power. At least 242 ...

m.youtube.com

Only one person survived.

 

[stinkynuts]

The horrific aftermath

Air India Crash: Boeing 787 Flight Crashes In Ahmedabad

An Air India plane destined for the U.K. crashed at Ahmedabad airport in India with hundreds of passengers on board. The cause of the crash was not immediate...

m.youtube.com

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Horrific.
What a disaster and must be the deadliest crash of the decade if I am right.
Looked like the aircraft stalled after takeoff and just crashed.

 

[unassuming]

One survivor pulled from wreckage

British passenger in seat 11A survives India plane crash, reports say

Vishwashkumar Ramesh is believed to have survived the Air India crash that killed at least 200 people.

www.bbc.com

Miracle survivor of the Air India plane crash walks out unscathed

A 38-year-old, who was seated on 11A, is now reportedly the lone survivor of the Air India plane crash. The person has been identified as Ramesh Viswashkumar...

www.youtube.com

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

The terror of the pilots knowing it was the end.

They wouldn't have had time to react as it happened so quickly.
I don't know if they made a mistake in how they configured the aircraft before take off.
Very sad.

Aviation experts have told the BBC the position of the plane's wing flaps as it took off may have caused a problem for the plane.
One video verified by the BBC shows the plane descending before a large explosion occurs as it hits the ground.
"When I'm looking at this," aviation analyst Geoffrey Thomas said, "the undercarriage is still down but the flaps have been retracted."
Another expert, Terry Tozer, said: "It's very hard to say from the video for sure, it doesn't look as if the flaps are extended and that would be a perfectly obvious explanation for an aircraft not completing its take-off correctly."
"That would point to potential human error if flaps aren't set correctly," said Marco Chan, a former pilot and a senior lecturer at Buckinghamshire New University, "but the resolution of the video is too low to confirm that."

What we know after Air India flight from Ahmedabad to London crashes

More than 200 people were on board the flight to London Gatwick when it crashed shortly after take-off.

www.bbc.com

 

[SchlongConery]

The 787 takes ALL the runway to accelerate and then the pilots pretty much yank it off the ground at the very end of the runway. (You can see the dust clouds from the wingtip vortices as the HEAVY aircraft -300,000 lbs- plane took off.). Plane climbs at a fairly aggressive angle of attack for that weight (IMO) but soon runs out of energy and just mushes down into the ground. Landing gear was never retracted. Kudos to the pilot flying for keeping the wings level and the aircraft under control until impact. It is so important to 'fly the airplane all the way to the end of the crash' for survivability

From that incredibly long take off roll, it seems the engines might not have beem developing full power. Depending on load, temp, runway length etc, the pilot might execute a reduced power takeoff to save fuel and wear and tear on the engines. Given the temps, loading etc I doubt that it was a reduced power TO. However, there is also a requirement for reduced power in some high temp takeoffs to reduce wear and risk of overheating-related problems.And if it was, then the pilot would certainly push the throttles full forward to get max power when the crew realized the end of the runway was coming up.

The lone survivor said he hard a big bang, people screamed, then the plane went down. Could be a bird strike or maybe even a compressor stall at that high angle of attack.

I've not flown a 787 but these big twin engine widebody Heavy airliners have TONS of power as they are certified to be able to continue a takeoff at a certain speed, climb and land on ONE engine. So you can pretty much power yourself out of trouble... unless you get behind the so-called 'power curve'.

Hard to day whether the flaps were at 5 deg or not deployed. However, there are various angles in the cellphone video that show a slight gap on the trailing edge, and others (like in this one) that show the slats (leading edge aerodynamic cuffs) deployed. You can't deploy the leading edge slats without (trailing edge) flaps extended. So this suggests flaps were deployed.

However, at this weight and high outdoor air temps, it would be better with flaps @ 15 degrees.

Having said that, my speculative guess is that for some reason the engines were not developing full takeoff power AND the flaps were not configured to make up for the reduced power.


This guy is credible and has another video of the takeoff.

 

[SchlongConery]

Interesting Xitter post on high temp ops re flaps and engine power settings

https://x.com/i/grok/share/xe6qQ06b5jzlxXsL4LeBW1YUF

 

[nottyboi]

Plane had no flaps down WTF, there is supposed to be a really loud warning if you throttle up with no flaps. In this day and age W T F .

 

[squeezer]

Airline Pilot Reveals CHILLING Clue in Final Moments of Air India Flight 171

 

[Birf]

One canadian, a woman dentist with a one year old. You have to wonder about shoddy maintenance as it is india.

 

[poorboy]

Captain Steeeve provides the best hypothesis. He's a 777 Captain. Says it's very hard to take off without the flaps being properly configured. Only 5 degrees of flap are used on the takeoff setting, so he says the video isn't good enough to see whether or not they are out.

He speculates the co pilot brought up the flaps instead of the gear which would explain why the gear is still down.


Lift vs. Power – What Really Happened to AI171? | Captain Steeeve Reacts

 

[Dougal Short]

The terror of the pilots knowing it was the end.

And it's looking more and more like it may have been pilot error...

 

[star003]

AI is unpredictable…be it Artificial Intelligence or Air India.
Jokes apart, It should now atleast raise serious concerns and investigation towards how the maintenance and security checks are done for these aircrafts. Are they really following the protocols and procedures or it’s all running casually with patch work and negligence. From outside, people trust that they are in safe hands of experts but only the insiders know how the management cut corners to reduce spending even on essential infrastructure.
Air India flights are garbage from inside, be it the seats, toilets, entertainment system, hospitality of staff, cleanliness of seats. So definitely the company who is contracted for maintenance of interior of AI flights is worst and the management of AI doesn’t care. It’s not just recent…it’s been like this for many years without any improvement. Now, coming to the maintenance of exterior and equipments, passengers don’t have expertise to judge that by just looking at it BUT it should be now questioned and scrutinised. The airline which can fix the entertainment units of their flight…can they be relied that they can fix the engines? or did the management give the direction that, it’s ok…try to fly somehow….will fix it next month if we get approval and budget.
Questions should be asked. RIP to the lost lives.

 

[bazokajoe]

AI is unpredictable…be it Artificial Intelligence or Air India.
Jokes apart, It should now atleast raise serious concerns and investigation towards how the maintenance and security checks are done for these aircrafts. Are they really following the protocols and procedures or it’s all running casually with patch work and negligence. From outside, people trust that they are in safe hands of experts but only the insiders know how the management cut corners to reduce spending even on essential infrastructure.
Air India flights are garbage from inside, be it the seats, toilets, entertainment system, hospitality of staff, cleanliness of seats. So definitely the company who is contracted for maintenance of interior of AI flights is worst and the management of AI doesn’t care. It’s not just recent…it’s been like this for many years without any improvement. Now, coming to the maintenance of exterior and equipments, passengers don’t have expertise to judge that by just looking at it BUT it should be now questioned and scrutinised. The airline which can fix the entertainment units of their flight…can they be relied that they can fix the engines? or did the management give the direction that, it’s ok…try to fly somehow….will fix it next month if we get approval and budget.
Questions should be asked. RIP to the lost lives.

I'm sure all those things will be looked at, not only in this incident but all crashes.

 

[SchlongConery]

Captain Steeeve provides the best hypothesis. He's a 777 Captain. Says it's very hard to take off without the flaps being properly configured. Only 5 degrees of flap are used on the takeoff setting, so he says the video isn't good enough to see whether or not they are out.

He speculates the co pilot brought up the flaps instead of the gear which would explain why the gear is still down.


Lift vs. Power – What Really Happened to AI171? | Captain Steeeve Reacts

I did some digging and found some Boeing 787 series data.

With an OAT (Outside Air Temp) of 40 C and lets say loaded to 10% less than MGTOW (Max Gross Take Off Weight), the performance chart for the 'Hi-Thrust Engines" (to be conservative) says that with Flaps set at 5 deg, the 787-8 needs 14,500' of runway for Take-Off.

Problem is that Runway 23 is only 12,500' long.

Anyone see a problem here, raise your hands.

However, at FLAPS 20, at the same weight of 480,000 lbs, only 9,200' of runway is required. And THAT incudes enough runway to hit the breaks and stop on the runway almost half a million pounds of jet fuel, humans and carbon fibre below "V1" (just before rotation speed) of 170 mph!


And yes, there are multiple FMS (Fight Management Systems), warning etc to advise and/or warn pilots of correct and incorrect configurations. Airbus' Fly-by-Wire -Full digital controlled system has better 'envelope protection' than Boeing.

95% probability that I'm wrong BUT it seems to be leaning more towards mis-setting the Outside Air Temp to a lower temp than actual, of the FMS, leading to the selection of FLAPS 5 and lower than required power setting for take off. Then, the flaps were possibly, mistakenly, retracted instead of the landing gear.

There is also the possibility of the aircraft being overloaded, either inadvertantly/miscalcula=tion... or just loading more paying cargo into the belly? Tankering cheap Russian jet fuel from India to Gatwick to save $ on fuel?

Then a pre-stall mush into the ground.

Horrible accident.

 

[star003]

I did some digging and found some Boeing 787 series data.

With an OAT (Outside Air Temp) of 40 C and lets say loaded to 10% less than MGTOW (Max Gross Take Off Weight), the performance chart for the 'Hi-Thrust Engines" (to be conservative) says that with Flaps set at 5 deg, the 787-8 needs 14,500' of runway for Take-Off.

Problem is that Runway 23 is only 12,500' long.

Anyone see a problem here, raise your hands.

However, at FLAPS 20, at the same weight of 480,000 lbs, only 9,200' of runway is required. And THAT incudes enough runway to hit the breaks and stop on the runway almost half a million pounds of jet fuel, humans and carbon fibre below "V1" (just before rotation speed) of 170 mph!


And yes, there are multiple FMS (Fight Management Systems), warning etc to advise and/or warn pilots of correct and incorrect configurations. Airbus' Fly-by-Wire -Full digital controlled system has better 'envelope protection' than Boeing.

95% probability that I'm wrong BUT it seems to be leaning more towards mis-setting the Outside Air Temp to a lower temp than actual, of the FMS, leading to the selection of FLAPS 5 and lower than required power setting for take off. Then, the flaps were possibly, mistakenly, retracted instead of the landing gear.

There is also the possibility of the aircraft being overloaded, either inadvertantly/miscalcula=tion... or just loading more paying cargo into the belly? Tankering cheap Russian jet fuel from India to Gatwick to save $ on fuel?

Then a pre-stall mush into the ground.

Horrible accident.



View attachment 448760

too technical for a layman like me to be able to comment…you copied it from somewhere or an aviation expert yourself?

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

However, at FLAPS 20, at the same weight of 480,000 lbs, only 9,200' of runway is required. And THAT incudes enough runway to hit the breaks and stop on the runway almost half a million pounds of jet fuel, humans and carbon fibre below "V1" (just before rotation speed) of 170 mph!

95% probability that I'm wrong BUT it seems to be leaning more towards mis-setting the Outside Air Temp to a lower temp than actual, of the FMS, leading to the selection of FLAPS 5 and lower than required power setting for take off. Then, the flaps were possibly, mistakenly, retracted instead of the landing gear.

I don't know much about planes, but I watched the air crash investigations for an air crash in Spain that occurred right after takeoff a long time back.
The pilots there forgot to set the flaps before takeoff and therefore it crashed.
That was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this accident as that particular episode always stayed with me.
So whenever I fly I always look out the window to see if the flaps are deployed before takeoff lmao.
Not sure what I'd do if it isn't though. Yikes!