Dalton Days

[moviefan]

I loved this story in today's Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...--dalton-days-premier-likes-the-sound-of-that

Actually, McGuinty's instincts are right. I think there is a feeling that the broader public sector has been a little too cushioned from the effects of the economic downturn.

But it's one thing to talk about it, another to do something about it.

And I don't think McGuinty's got the balls to do anything.

 

[train]

How does one get civil "serpants" to take unpaid days off only on those days they were planning to "screw the pooch" anyway.

Hey perhaps Family Day shouldn't be a paid holiday if you work for the government

Has Dalton actually done any heavy lifting on anything ? I mean it ....anything?

 

[landscaper]

How does one get civil "serpants" to take unpaid days off only on those days they were planning to "screw the pooch" anyway.

Hey perhaps Family Day shouldn't be a paid holiday if you work for the government

Has Dalton actually done any heavy lifting on anything ? I mean it ....anything?

Bob Rae managed it with the election results that followed. The civil service needs to be pruned,

One idea is to put the mandarins and politicians on commission, if your ministry comes in under budget you get paid, if you don't like the new system the doors to the left

 

[slowpoke]

I loved this story in today's Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...--dalton-days-premier-likes-the-sound-of-that

Actually, McGuinty's instincts are right. I think there is a feeling that the broader public sector has been a little too cushioned from the effects of the economic downturn.

But it's one thing to talk about it, another to do something about it.

And I don't think McGuinty's got the balls to do anything.

Bob Rae introduced his Rae Days but when BC tried something similar, the BC Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional. McGuinty would probably be better to use the threat of mass layoffs, service cutbacks and privatisation of certain public service functions to force the unions to either re-open their contracts like they did with GM or to arrange for "voluntary" unpaid days off.

 

[fuji]

Bob Rae introduced his Rae Days but when BC tried something similar, the BC Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional. McGuinty would probably be better to use the threat of mass layoffs, service cutbacks and privatisation of certain public service functions to force the unions to either re-open their contracts like they did with GM or to arrange for "voluntary" unpaid days off.

Sounds like that is exactly what he is doing. I think he couched 'Dalton Days' as being a way to avoid layoffs.

 

[chiller_boy]

Bob Rae introduced his Rae Days but when BC tried something similar, the BC Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional. McGuinty would probably be better to use the threat of mass layoffs, service cutbacks and privatisation of certain public service functions to force the unions to either re-open their contracts like they did with GM or to arrange for "voluntary" unpaid days off.

I read that the public service unions are suggestioning thata an across-the-board tax increase is a better solution that reinstituting Rae days. If that is there view than RAe days will definitely be on the table.

BTW I understand the VW in Germany instituted a flavor of RAE days at the factories to keep full employment and it was widely lauded, I bet the same would have made the Oshawa auto workers quite happy.

Bob Rae was ahead of his time

 

[mrcheeks]

Hey perhaps Family Day shouldn't be a paid holiday if you work for the government

Family Day is not even a holiday yet for federal employees. They have to come to work on that day for regular pay. The contractual agreement has to be reviewed and revised before it becomes a holiday and that could take a while. Federal government employees do get Rememberance Day and Easter Monday off though along with the other stats so its not like life is totally unfair.

 

[slowpoke]

I read that the public service unions are suggestioning thata an across-the-board tax increase is a better solution that reinstituting Rae days. If that is there view than RAe days will definitely be on the table.

BTW I understand the VW in Germany instituted a flavor of RAE days at the factories to keep full employment and it was widely lauded, I bet the same would have made the Oshawa auto workers quite happy.

Bob Rae was ahead of his time

I hate to seem unfashionably bolshie but I could never see what was so bad about Rae Days. I know they caused problems in certain sectors (ie: nurses had to be called back from unpaid days off and ended up getting paid overtime) but, in most cases, I think they were an OK solution.

 

[landscaper]

The Mqsquinty govt has a serious re election problem. They are claiming they went into deficiet to fight the recession, the only problem is sooner or later somebody is actually going to track the spending patterns and the dates and the govt will then have some serious explaining to do.

The spector of Dalton Days is something that can take over the oped pages for a while and perhaps take the spotlight off their actual spending habits.

 

[benn]

How does one get civil "serpants" to take unpaid days off only on those days they were planning to "screw the pooch" anyway.

Hey perhaps Family Day shouldn't be a paid holiday if you work for the government

Has Dalton actually done any heavy lifting on anything ? I mean it ....anything?

hence why its call civil servants they are government employees.

 

[train]

Family Day is not even a holiday yet for federal employees. They have to come to work on that day for regular pay. The contractual agreement has to be reviewed and revised before it becomes a holiday and that could take a while. Federal government employees do get Rememberance Day and Easter Monday off though along with the other stats so its not like life is totally unfair.

Ok now I'm confused, which isn't a totally foreign condition for me. How is that that family day is not optional in the private sector but is in the public? Does this mean that federal government employees are not subject to provincial labour laws ?

 

[landscaper]

Ok now I'm confused, which isn't a totally foreign condition for me. How is that that family day is not optional in the private sector but is in the public? Does this mean that federal government employees are not subject to provincial labour laws ?

Employees of federally regulated industries have additional regulations beyond the provincial laws and in some cases are ruled by federal as opposed to provincial laws, railway and telecom industry come to mind. As far as family day is concerned it is a provincial holiday in Ontario only Manitoba for example may have a " family day" on a different date.

As a side not some of the torontop public service unions don't get family day as a specific off day either, their collective agreements specify how many stat holidays they get smoe such as the police were already getting more off than was required under their contract so the city said no( i can't believe I just said the city said no to a union) they don't get the credit for the stat day. ( it would have meant overtime for anybody working the day)

 

[shakenbake]

Family Day is not even a holiday yet for federal employees. They have to come to work on that day for regular pay. The contractual agreement has to be reviewed and revised before it becomes a holiday and that could take a while. Federal government employees do get Rememberance Day and Easter Monday off though along with the other stats so its not like life is totally unfair.

Give and take. The severeance pay from the feds for an average civil servant is not much to write home about compared to private organisations where I have worked.

 

[shakenbake]

I hate to seem unfashionably bolshie but I could never see what was so bad about Rae Days. I know they caused problems in certain sectors (ie: nurses had to be called back from unpaid days off and ended up getting paid overtime) but, in most cases, I think they were an OK solution.

It wasn't just the Rae Days. It was the entire 'Social Contract'.

 

[chiller_boy]

Bob Rae ahead of his time?????

Bob Rae got us into the mess in the first place by declaring that he was going to spend our way out of a world wide recession.

I'll never forget that display of childishness by the public sector unions tearing up the proposal and laughing and dancing after rejecting it.

Every western government is trying to spend(ie stimulus) their way out of the almost depression we are in. That includes republicans in the US and Conservatives in Canada. it is the accepted approach to solving a very very serious economic situation. Cutting government spending would make matters much worse. Now you may argue about how we do the spending (ie bailing out GM), but in our system we simply cannot afford to let banks and major reinsurers like AIG fail. We could change the system(shitcan derivitives for example, but stuff like that won't happen and even if it did it would be untimely). Critisize Bob Rae if you like( but your real hatred is for the unions), but believe me, laid off auto workers in Ontario would love to have Rae days.

 

[moviefan]

Has Dalton actually done any heavy lifting on anything ? I mean it ....anything?

The quick answer is no, he hasn't.

Meanwhile, this situation is certainly getting interesting.

Most of the editorials I saw supported McGuinty's view that the broader public sector needs to start shouldering some of the pain. Having brought people on board, however, I'm not convinced McGuinty will pull the trigger. I think he's much too afraid of the teachers' unions.

This reminds me a bit of David Miller in the summer. Miller convinced everyone that sick pay was an issue, then pretty much caved on the issue.

 

[jwmorrice]

I'm giving serious thought to maybe running for mayor in this city and changing the entire way its operated....

Oh for the love of god!

jwm

 

[MarkII]

Two ways of looking at this.

One, public sector employees are all "wearing" multiple hats due to attrition and not rehiring those that leave. They are over worked in some circumstances.

Two, the public sector should not be insulated from the reality of the economy simply by being a government employee with a strong union.

Personally, I'm in favor of #2.

 

[slowpoke]

Bob Rae ahead of his time?????

Bob Rae got us into the mess in the first place by declaring that he was going to spend our way out of a world wide recession.

I'll never forget that display of childishness by the public sector unions tearing up the proposal and laughing and dancing after rejecting it.

Harper is spending large to combat the effects of this recession too. So is just about every other government you could name. Rae was unfortunate enought to become premier just as the severe recession of 1990 took hold. He also inherited a $3 B deficit from his predecessor, David Peterson. When you consider the economic boom years that Peterson enjoyed, Ontario should have entered that recession with a healthy surplus. But Peterson chose to spend large during the good times (just like Harper did from Jan 2006 until the end of 2007) so ON was in shit shape financially when Rae took over.

Rae did what everyone else is doing now - he spent to soften the effects of the recession. By 1993, the ON deficit was about $12 B and Rae tried to put on the brakes by taking on the unions, freezing wages, re-opening labour contracts and demanding 12 unpaid days off. He managed to save $1.95 B with those measures but the unions turned on him and his career was in tatters.

What is hard to understand is how anyone can blame Bob Rae for his spending in the 1990 recession but then give Harper a passing grade for his spending since he became our PM in Jan 2006. Ontario was in recession from Rae's first day on the job and he started off with a $3B deficit. So he had absolutely no wiggle room. Harper, on the other hand, started out with a fat surplus and he had 2 years to get his feet wet before the recession came along. Harper spent like a drunken sailor for those 2 years and managed to eliminate the surplus just in time for the recession. Then he spent more, a lot more, once the recession struck. So why is Rae the bad guy here?

 

[slowpoke]

Check your figures again on the deficits run by ontario.

I'm just as pissed at Harper, however in a minority government its very difficult to manage efficiently.

As for Petersen.... all I have to do is look at the skydome and how out of control the spending was on that. What was supposed to be a $200 million stadium ended up costing over $750mil and guess who the contractor was? Hint, he's also the President of the Ontario Liberal Party. Bobby Rae was told not to increase spending and he didnt listen, instead he went from a 3 bil deficit to 25 bil.

According to this article from the Fraser Institute, ON had a deficit of "over $11 BIllion" in 1995 which is the year Harris took over. Considering that Rae started off with a $3B deficit and added another $8B to $9B because of a very severe recession, I don't see why he should be singled out any more than any of today's leaders. At least Rae had the balls to go after the unions with his social contract / Rae Days. In that respect (sticking it to the unions), he did a better job ($1.95B in concessions) than most of the federal or provincial leaders we've had since then.

Governments need to spend during recessions. Almost every world leader you can name has drastically increased spending during this recession and Rae was doing exactly the same thing when he was Premier. I'm sure he made mistakes but I don't think any gov't would have done much better considering the depth of the 1990 recession. Harper certainly isn't doing anything better today and he should get serious demerit points for his unnecessary spending increases during his first 2 years. He cut the GST by 2 points and threw money in all directions. And Harper's spending had nothing to do with being in a minority gov't situation. He could have chosen a more typically conservative approach and preserved our surplus which would've come in handy when the recession arrived.

http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/books/fiscal_surplus/chapter8.html


..."Between 1990 and 1995 our ration of debt to GDP doubled and, in 1995, Ontario had a deficit of 3.4 percent of GDP. Ontario was spending nearly one-fifth of its revenues on interest payments alone. The deficit was over 11 billion dollars and the provincial debt was 100 billion dollars. The deficit was so large that we were spending over a million dollars an hour more than we were taking in revenues."...