Death Penalty
- Thread starter Quest4Less
- Start date
- Status
The executioner has nothing to do with the trial or the incident.
Any search for fault should begin in the courtroom.
Any search for fault should begin in the courtroom.
wow
this reminds me of the should you spank your child debate, my opinion is such, for extreme cases i truly believe that it is founded without true consequences for ones actions we will continue to have a society where kids are carrying guns to school and drugs are all over, and murder is more an oops now than ever... its disgusting then we have people who becuase they cant pick up the phone and say hey im ill, i dont trust myself with my anger right now pls put my children in care till i get better... they stab or kill them to death... this sickens me as it does some of you im sure... we need some kind of statement to say we will not tolerate this kind of action... look at Singapore!!!
As for whether, they were innocent or not , well the problem should be or question should be.. why doesnt somebody fix these tests and perfect them so we know exactly who is to blame...
this reminds me of the should you spank your child debate, my opinion is such, for extreme cases i truly believe that it is founded without true consequences for ones actions we will continue to have a society where kids are carrying guns to school and drugs are all over, and murder is more an oops now than ever... its disgusting then we have people who becuase they cant pick up the phone and say hey im ill, i dont trust myself with my anger right now pls put my children in care till i get better... they stab or kill them to death... this sickens me as it does some of you im sure... we need some kind of statement to say we will not tolerate this kind of action... look at Singapore!!!
As for whether, they were innocent or not , well the problem should be or question should be.. why doesnt somebody fix these tests and perfect them so we know exactly who is to blame...
Ripped, how do you suppose someone who is trying to investigate the cause of a wrongful murder conviction would accomplish this task without taking a look at the trial and the players involved in the incident?
I know that since my statement was so dumb, the answer should be obvious, but please enlighten me.
I know that since my statement was so dumb, the answer should be obvious, but please enlighten me.
Last edited:
Excellent point, Ripped. If we, as a society, were to impose the death penalty and wrongly execute someone then society is guilty of murder. What punishment should society receive?Ripped said:
In our current system, if we wrongly imprison someone then they may have lost part of their life but we are able to give them the rest of their life back.
Now I'm not saying that this has happened a lot in countries that do have the death penalty but it has happened. I for one don't want to take the chance that someone is wrongly executed.
A number of years ago I read an article, I believe it was in Macleans, that said that since Canada abolished the death penalty that the murder rate (not the number of murders) has actually dropped. I don't believe this shows that not having the death penalty reduces the number of murders but I think it does show that the death penalty is not a deterent.
The death penalty has been shown not to be an effective deterent which means that it is only useful as a punishment. If you truly want to punish people then why let them off the hook so easily. Make the punishment last as long as possible. Put them in jail for the rest of their lives. No parole. No reprieve. No hope.
Benefits Justify an Acceptable Risk of Error
Support for the death penalty comes down to weighing the benefits against the risk of executing an innocent person.
From my perspective, the benefits are:
- cost effective means to eliminate a potential menace to society
- eliminating the possibility for repeat offenders.
The risk of executing an innocent person needs to be examined. I am willing and prepared to accept a 0.1% error that an innocent person is wrongly executed for a capital crime. This represents one unnecessary death in 1000 executions.
To avoid unnecessary risks and expenses, all death sentences should be carried out within 8 hours of the sentence being handed down.
Support for the death penalty comes down to weighing the benefits against the risk of executing an innocent person.
From my perspective, the benefits are:
- cost effective means to eliminate a potential menace to society
- eliminating the possibility for repeat offenders.
The risk of executing an innocent person needs to be examined. I am willing and prepared to accept a 0.1% error that an innocent person is wrongly executed for a capital crime. This represents one unnecessary death in 1000 executions.
To avoid unnecessary risks and expenses, all death sentences should be carried out within 8 hours of the sentence being handed down.
Paladin...
Respectfully, the imposition of the death penalty actually costs far MORE than life imprisonment. With the amount of court costs, the mandatory appeals, death penalty cases in the US cost at least three times what a life sentence would cost.
As far as elimintating the repeat offense goes, i have to agree with you there, however, it would be much simpler if life meant life.
One thing about the americans i like is that sometimes they sentence a guy to 500 years, with no possibility of parole before 300 years.
The death penalty is not a deterent, it is simple revenge, and it is wrong. As far as i know, the only developed country in the world that still uses capital punishment is the USA, and there are now voices of concern even in the USA. Illinoios for example has implemented a moritorium on capital punishment after several men on death row were cleared. Texas has wrongly executed several men. It is estimated that anywhere from 10 percent to as high as 25 percent of those on death row in the USA didn't do it. Even pro death penalty forces in the USA acknowledge that there are men on death row who are innocent.
In the USA, and Canada for that matter, you get as much justice as you can afford. I wonder how many rich dudes are on death row in the USA?
In Canada you only have to look at David Milgard, Steven Truscot, Guy Paul Morin and shake your head. Truscot was convicted of killing 12 year old Lyne Harper at age 14. A crime that he did not commit and sentenced to hang. Put in prison by a cop who "knew" he had the right guy/kid. A cop who ignored evidence that Truscot was innocent, ignored other leads, ignored other cops who felt they had the wrong guy. Milgard framed by police in Saskatchewan spending 20 someodd years in jail. Guy Paul Morin, a odd little guy who kept bees and played the clarinet who had to have done it. Put before a crown attorney who lied and withheld evidence in court that would have cleared morin. Convicted by a jury of killing a child - Christine Jessop, in the words of one juror, "because he didn't look at us when he testified, so i knew he did it"
Our legal system is full of holes because it is based on human decision making and our human desire to catch someone responsible at any costs. Often we are blinded by this desire. Someone has to be convicted.
How many other guys are out there in Canadian jails that didn't do it??
I really doubt if you found yourself in Truscot's, Morin's, or Milgard's postion that you would be so eager for a sentence of death to be carried out within 8 hours.
Keep in mind, these were all guys who were just going about their day to day lives, hurting no-one, just like you or I and one day the cops show up and take them away, charging them with murder. It can and does happen. It seems like a nightmare, but it's reality.
The common law is based on the premise that better to let a guilty man go free then to convict an innocent one.
Respectfully, the imposition of the death penalty actually costs far MORE than life imprisonment. With the amount of court costs, the mandatory appeals, death penalty cases in the US cost at least three times what a life sentence would cost.
As far as elimintating the repeat offense goes, i have to agree with you there, however, it would be much simpler if life meant life.
One thing about the americans i like is that sometimes they sentence a guy to 500 years, with no possibility of parole before 300 years.
The death penalty is not a deterent, it is simple revenge, and it is wrong. As far as i know, the only developed country in the world that still uses capital punishment is the USA, and there are now voices of concern even in the USA. Illinoios for example has implemented a moritorium on capital punishment after several men on death row were cleared. Texas has wrongly executed several men. It is estimated that anywhere from 10 percent to as high as 25 percent of those on death row in the USA didn't do it. Even pro death penalty forces in the USA acknowledge that there are men on death row who are innocent.
In the USA, and Canada for that matter, you get as much justice as you can afford. I wonder how many rich dudes are on death row in the USA?
In Canada you only have to look at David Milgard, Steven Truscot, Guy Paul Morin and shake your head. Truscot was convicted of killing 12 year old Lyne Harper at age 14. A crime that he did not commit and sentenced to hang. Put in prison by a cop who "knew" he had the right guy/kid. A cop who ignored evidence that Truscot was innocent, ignored other leads, ignored other cops who felt they had the wrong guy. Milgard framed by police in Saskatchewan spending 20 someodd years in jail. Guy Paul Morin, a odd little guy who kept bees and played the clarinet who had to have done it. Put before a crown attorney who lied and withheld evidence in court that would have cleared morin. Convicted by a jury of killing a child - Christine Jessop, in the words of one juror, "because he didn't look at us when he testified, so i knew he did it"
Our legal system is full of holes because it is based on human decision making and our human desire to catch someone responsible at any costs. Often we are blinded by this desire. Someone has to be convicted.
How many other guys are out there in Canadian jails that didn't do it??
I really doubt if you found yourself in Truscot's, Morin's, or Milgard's postion that you would be so eager for a sentence of death to be carried out within 8 hours.
Keep in mind, these were all guys who were just going about their day to day lives, hurting no-one, just like you or I and one day the cops show up and take them away, charging them with murder. It can and does happen. It seems like a nightmare, but it's reality.
The common law is based on the premise that better to let a guilty man go free then to convict an innocent one.
Last edited:
Re: Benefits Justify an Acceptable Risk of Error
Wouldn't putting them in jail also eliminate the possibility of repeat offences. How does executing them make them less likely to kill again?
Note: According to Statistics Canada our national murder rate is 1.8 per 100,000 people and here in Ontario it is only 1.3 per 100,000.
I think when dealing with people's lives a cost/benefit analysis isn't the best way to determine what's best. If that were the case then our health care and educational systems would be cheaper but no where near as effective.Paladin said:
Wouldn't putting them in jail also eliminate the possibility of repeat offences. How does executing them make them less likely to kill again?
You may think differently if you or someone you cared about were the one.Paladin said:
Note: According to Statistics Canada our national murder rate is 1.8 per 100,000 people and here in Ontario it is only 1.3 per 100,000.
Re: Re: Benefits Justify an Acceptable Risk of Error
Even first degree is only 25 years.
There are heinous murders that are considered not premeditated and thus often result in second degree convictions which often result in the murderer to be released in 10 to 15 years, not to mention all of the plea bargains.
As for your second question, I have never heard of a dead person repeating offences or anything else.
I voted for only in very extreme cases like Bernardo, and Olsen.
Tiberius makes some good points especially the one life should mean life.
Life sentences in Canada usually does not mean the rest of the person's life.Average Joe said:
Even first degree is only 25 years.
There are heinous murders that are considered not premeditated and thus often result in second degree convictions which often result in the murderer to be released in 10 to 15 years, not to mention all of the plea bargains.
As for your second question, I have never heard of a dead person repeating offences or anything else.
I voted for only in very extreme cases like Bernardo, and Olsen.
Tiberius makes some good points especially the one life should mean life.
Would'nt it be nice?
Just think!
Would'nt it be nice if the last sunday of every month we held public executions at Skydome??? after the criminal was executed they could wisk them off to the hospital and remove all organs to be donated to people who need transplants????
Was watching 60 mins one night ,they had a story on the public executions in China! unbelievable!!
honestly I really think it should only be used in extreme cases when the evidence is just overwhelming such as Bernardo where video tapes have captured the crime!
Just think!
Would'nt it be nice if the last sunday of every month we held public executions at Skydome??? after the criminal was executed they could wisk them off to the hospital and remove all organs to be donated to people who need transplants????
Was watching 60 mins one night ,they had a story on the public executions in China! unbelievable!!
honestly I really think it should only be used in extreme cases when the evidence is just overwhelming such as Bernardo where video tapes have captured the crime!
Contemplating the future of capital punishment!
Probably in a hundred years when we're half computer, there won't be capital punishment as it exists today. Just the blue screen of death!
vvv
Probably in a hundred years when we're half computer, there won't be capital punishment as it exists today. Just the blue screen of death!
vvv
This is one of those areas where our justice can be manipulated and abused by both defendant and prosecutor alike. Sure there have been times of abuse where innocent men have been executed. Is it a deterrant, I think it is. I mean why would u commit a crime when death is the penalty. Crime of this nature continues to happen because of other factors. Criminals do not think they will ever get to the chair, because they know that the majority of our society is against the death penalty. Does crime decrease when the death penalty is removed? One cannot compared the facts in the past because those circumstances do not apply today. One can argue that when canada dropped the death penalty, it happened at a time when society was in a boom economically.
I'm sorry but I think people who commit acts of murder, torture, rape etc should be put to death. Its difficult to fathom killing such a criminal, unless the crime affected you. People voice their opinions, sometimes not understanding what the victims went through. Life in prison has proven to fail, simply because of the environment. How can you expect to rehabiliate someone by placing them in such an environment? Trust me on this.. once someone rapes, torture, or murder someone you love, your perspective on the death penalty changes.
I'm sorry but I think people who commit acts of murder, torture, rape etc should be put to death. Its difficult to fathom killing such a criminal, unless the crime affected you. People voice their opinions, sometimes not understanding what the victims went through. Life in prison has proven to fail, simply because of the environment. How can you expect to rehabiliate someone by placing them in such an environment? Trust me on this.. once someone rapes, torture, or murder someone you love, your perspective on the death penalty changes.
I very much doubt that someone who is in the mind set that causes them to kill, would stop to think that they may get the death penalty. Usually they are not of sound mind, to say the least, at the time, and/or do not expect to be caught.
There are many cases where the loved ones of the victims are able to forgive the killer. I would think it is far more satisfying than carrying out the same act they had perpetrated against them, although legalised ( legalised murder ) If they kill the killer, it is most likely that the the offender has loved ones as well, and may only cause further misery. No doubt, it is far from easy to forgive such an act, but many times the hardest thing to do is the most beneficial in the long run
Break the cycle or perpetuate it ...
There are many cases where the loved ones of the victims are able to forgive the killer. I would think it is far more satisfying than carrying out the same act they had perpetrated against them, although legalised ( legalised murder ) If they kill the killer, it is most likely that the the offender has loved ones as well, and may only cause further misery. No doubt, it is far from easy to forgive such an act, but many times the hardest thing to do is the most beneficial in the long run
Break the cycle or perpetuate it ...
Last edited:
Capital Punishment
Here are my reasons why capital punishment should continue to be banned in Canada.
1. Police LIES and INCOMPETENCE put Steven Truscott, Guy Paul Morin and Donald Marshall behind bars. These guys were COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Truscott was under age but would have been HUNG if Parliament had not outlawed Capital Punishment.
How many innocent people were executed before it was banned???
2. Even though we now have DNA evidence, who can say some
LIAR will not taint the evidence to obtain the conviction of an INNOCENT person?
3. Capital punishment obviously does not reduce the murder rate.
and does not work as a deterrent.
4. Sensationalist US media reporting and movies glorify revenge and instant justice and fuel the desire for revenge. Executing people for revenge debases all members of society. If you like this sort of idea - go to Iran.
5. The US just executed a woman who killed somebody when she was 17, then turned her life around. Despite pleas from the Pope(!) George Bush executed her. If the death penalty is in force, don't assume that you will get to pick and choose who it is applied to.
6. There are "monsters" but they are very rare. I am sure these people, sentenced to life in solitary would rather die. If that is their wish, they should be permitted to die. Dangerous offenders should NEVER get out.
7. Can you imagine the pain and suffering endured by Steven Truscott and his family. Can you imagine if we had executed him.
I don't want innocent blood on MY hands.
Here are my reasons why capital punishment should continue to be banned in Canada.
1. Police LIES and INCOMPETENCE put Steven Truscott, Guy Paul Morin and Donald Marshall behind bars. These guys were COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Truscott was under age but would have been HUNG if Parliament had not outlawed Capital Punishment.
How many innocent people were executed before it was banned???
2. Even though we now have DNA evidence, who can say some
LIAR will not taint the evidence to obtain the conviction of an INNOCENT person?
3. Capital punishment obviously does not reduce the murder rate.
and does not work as a deterrent.
4. Sensationalist US media reporting and movies glorify revenge and instant justice and fuel the desire for revenge. Executing people for revenge debases all members of society. If you like this sort of idea - go to Iran.
5. The US just executed a woman who killed somebody when she was 17, then turned her life around. Despite pleas from the Pope(!) George Bush executed her. If the death penalty is in force, don't assume that you will get to pick and choose who it is applied to.
6. There are "monsters" but they are very rare. I am sure these people, sentenced to life in solitary would rather die. If that is their wish, they should be permitted to die. Dangerous offenders should NEVER get out.
7. Can you imagine the pain and suffering endured by Steven Truscott and his family. Can you imagine if we had executed him.
I don't want innocent blood on MY hands.
Re: Benefits Justify an Acceptable Risk of Error
Now Bill Coffin is probably the most famous innocent man hanged. Stephen Truscott almost had his head in the noose. Then we have Donald Marshall, David Milguard and Guy Paul Moran who would have faced hanging if we still had a death penalty.
Canada's error rate is higher than your tolerance point.
Have there even been 1,000 executions in Canada since confederation? I suspect not.
Now Bill Coffin is probably the most famous innocent man hanged. Stephen Truscott almost had his head in the noose. Then we have Donald Marshall, David Milguard and Guy Paul Moran who would have faced hanging if we still had a death penalty.
Canada's error rate is higher than your tolerance point.
Let Sanity Prevail
I am strong capital punishment opponent: See my page:
http://www.romeospurplepages.com/html/Abolish.htm
The last time we had this discussion there were a lot of Bible-thumpers contributing. It sickens me that a country as promising as USA would continue with such barbarism. As long as live I will NEVER EVER visit Texas.
Note:Turkey just last month abolished capital punishment.
I am strong capital punishment opponent: See my page:
http://www.romeospurplepages.com/html/Abolish.htm
The last time we had this discussion there were a lot of Bible-thumpers contributing. It sickens me that a country as promising as USA would continue with such barbarism. As long as live I will NEVER EVER visit Texas.
Note:Turkey just last month abolished capital punishment.
death penalty
At one time a number of years back I was in favour of the death penalty, a few years ago my mind was changed fro the simple reason there have been numerous people that have done time in jail for commiting a crime they had nothing to do with, innocent people that may have been put to death if there was a death penalty.
In extreme cases (not mantioning any) where there is factual evidence & nothing circumstantial, and perhaps after all appeal procceses have been used I could slightly agree to it
At one time a number of years back I was in favour of the death penalty, a few years ago my mind was changed fro the simple reason there have been numerous people that have done time in jail for commiting a crime they had nothing to do with, innocent people that may have been put to death if there was a death penalty.
In extreme cases (not mantioning any) where there is factual evidence & nothing circumstantial, and perhaps after all appeal procceses have been used I could slightly agree to it
For all those that have been saying that with DNA evidence it is possible to guarantee no innocent people would be convicted I would like to point out that not all murders have DNA evidence. For example, a drive by shooting would probably not have any DNA evidence.
I would also like to point out a case in recent times where there was so much DNA evidence that the killer did everything but autograph the scene of the crime but he still got off. If a guilty man can go free even though there is a ton of DNA evidence then an innocent person can be wrongly convicted from improperly handled or planted DNA evidence. Before any one asks, the trial I'm referring to is the O.J. Simpson trial.
I would also like to point out a case in recent times where there was so much DNA evidence that the killer did everything but autograph the scene of the crime but he still got off. If a guilty man can go free even though there is a ton of DNA evidence then an innocent person can be wrongly convicted from improperly handled or planted DNA evidence. Before any one asks, the trial I'm referring to is the O.J. Simpson trial.
- Status
