Steeles Royal

Gun Control in the US - Part 2

cunning linguist

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http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...ave_voted_for_grassley_cornyn_amendments.html

So now Democrats vote down gun control measures because they're too partisan to take an olive branch from the Republicans. Guess they aren't looking for compromise after all.

- Grassley's bill, in addition to ostensibly strengthening the National Criminal Instant Background Check System, would also tweak the laws regarding gun sales to individuals who have been involuntarily committed to psychiatric institutions and veterans who have been deemed incompetent to manage their own affairs. Everytown says Grassley's proposal to allow involuntarily committed patients to buy guns as soon as their commitment orders have expired is dangerous. (Some critics believe the existing legal processes by which gun rights are restored to the involuntarily committed are already too weak; Grassley would eliminate those processes.) The group also says there are better existing proposals to deal with the veteran-competency issue.

- Cornyn's bill would require the government to prove within three days that a terror suspect "has committed, conspired to commit, attempted to commit, or will commit an act of terrorism," a standard that amounts to proving in three days that someone has already committed or is imminently ready to commit a crime.
 

fuji

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Those two bills don't seem like a compromise.

A compromise would have been to close the loopholes allowing sales of guns without background checks.
 

cunning linguist

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Those two bills don't seem like a compromise.

A compromise would have been to close the loopholes allowing sales of guns without background checks.
I've yet to see a bill tabled, by Democrats, that didn't either imply registration or totally disregard tenants of natural justice or due process.
 

IM469

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I've yet to see a bill tabled, by Democrats, that didn't either imply registration or totally disregard tenants of natural justice or due process.
My goodness - I didn't realise that you careful read the actual legislation rather than turn on Fox or CNN for a reporters perspective.

Both sides have a habit of bundling bills which is like offering a mint to a kid that is rapped in dog shit. The kid turns it down - you can still say - 'well I did offer you the candy -but you refused it.' What the reports usually don't tell you is the bundled bills that were included.

There is a very level headed republican from Utah who seems to really want a working congress. :
Congresswoman Wants To Limit Bills To One Subject At A Time, Stop Last-Minute Legislation Dumps - Republican Rep. Mia Love of Utah introduced a measure on Jan. 6 that would limit bills in Congress to one subject at a time in an effort to limit the practice of including controversial and often unrelated legislation. "Members of both parties have made a habit of passing complex, thousand-page bills without hearings, amendments or debate," Love said in a Jan. 11 press release. "That process and the collusion that goes with it are why we are $18 trillion in debt and why the American people have lost trust in elected officials."

Link: http://www.americanews.com/story/po...limit-bills-one-subject-time-stop-last-minute
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Those two bills don't seem like a compromise.
The sentence that followed his quote, which linguist cunningly chose to omit, bluntly said as much:
Everytown's position, then, is that the Grassley bill would be actively dangerous and the Cornyn bill wouldn't do anything at all.
They fit his olive branch metaphor only if whipping was what he had in mind.
 

cunning linguist

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The sentence that followed his quote, which linguist cunningly chose to omit, bluntly said as much: They fit his olive branch metaphor only if whipping was what he had in mind.
Gotta love the "in-depth" analysis there. "Dangerous", really, that's the whole counter argument?
 

wilbur

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My goodness - I didn't realise that you careful read the actual legislation rather than turn on Fox or CNN for a reporters perspective.

Both sides have a habit of bundling bills which is like offering a mint to a kid that is rapped in dog shit. The kid turns it down - you can still say - 'well I did offer you the candy -but you refused it.' What the reports usually don't tell you is the bundled bills that were included.

There is a very level headed republican from Utah who seems to really want a working congress. :
Congresswoman Wants To Limit Bills To One Subject At A Time, Stop Last-Minute Legislation Dumps - Republican Rep. Mia Love of Utah introduced a measure on Jan. 6 that would limit bills in Congress to one subject at a time in an effort to limit the practice of including controversial and often unrelated legislation. "Members of both parties have made a habit of passing complex, thousand-page bills without hearings, amendments or debate," Love said in a Jan. 11 press release. "That process and the collusion that goes with it are why we are $18 trillion in debt and why the American people have lost trust in elected officials."

Link: http://www.americanews.com/story/po...limit-bills-one-subject-time-stop-last-minute
This is true. They hide stuff in a bill that ostensibly seems like its reasonable . But when you really look into it, it contains unacceptable measures. When it gets defeated because of the fine print, then they can blame the other side for being obtuse and unreasonable, and having an 'agenda'. The press, who's only mandate is to get big scoops and create controversy in order to sell more papers and get more advertising revenue, does not have the attention span to properly analyse such bills and jumps on the bandwagon.

This one's got nothing to do with gun gon control. It has everything to do with scoring political points using gun control as a pretext.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Gotta love the "in-depth" analysis there. "Dangerous", really, that's the whole counter argument?
That's the the 'authority' you picked and quoted, also omitting their disclaimer "Here's the gist:" in your eagerness to paint the GOP as compromising appeasers determined to make peace with the Democrats. But that ain't what your source says.

If you want the "… whole counter argument", look up and read the Congressional Record. And show us the quotes of actual Republican legislators offering their olive branches.
 

Ceiling Cat

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Feb 25, 2009
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One thing legislators can do is to introduce the notion to gun owners to include their guns in their will. A gun owner will be encouraged to will the gun to a relative or to the state for destruction after their departure from this world. Even some ardent gun owners and people that believe in the right to bear arms believe that guns not be in the hands of some of their relatives. Should guns be willed for destruction, there will be less guns around and less in the hands of people that should not have them. This move is a positive for all concerned.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Yes there is partisanship involved.

But the GOP Bills were pretty ridiculous. Cornyn's bill gave lip service to denying sales to terrorists but the requirement of 3 days to prove in court their terrorist intentions is quite obviously a transparent attempt to pretend action. And as your quote states, Gravey's bill would allow people to buy guns as soon as their commitment is over. Getting out of the psych ward and immediately being able to buy guns is a weakening of even the current laws.

And I know you see gun registrations and mandatory centralized background checks as a plot to steal guns from lawful owners but they are sensible. More online gun sites are requiring sales to be processed through FFL. It would be sensible if ALL private gun sales followed the same system.
 

cunning linguist

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Yes there is partisanship involved.

But the GOP Bills were pretty ridiculous. Cornyn's bill gave lip service to denying sales to terrorists but the requirement of 3 days to prove in court their terrorist intentions is quite obviously a transparent attempt to pretend action. And as your quote states, Gravey's bill would allow people to buy guns as soon as their commitment is over. Getting out of the psych ward and immediately being able to buy guns is a weakening of even the current laws.

And I know you see gun registrations and mandatory centralized background checks as a plot to steal guns from lawful owners but they are sensible. More online gun sites are requiring sales to be processed through FFL. It would be sensible if ALL private gun sales followed the same system.
Point-of-sale reporting for private sales? No thanks, no one will put up with it. It is a plot to incrementally steal guns from law abiding owners, we've already seen it used in such a way, here in Canada. Being on a government watch list for having a particular lifestyle, gee, I wonder what's wrong with that? :rolleyes:

As for ridiculous bills, look no further than Clinton's "Assault Weapons Ban" of 1994, which included cosmetic and ergonomic features and accessories, for fuck's sake.
 

wilbur

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Yes there is partisanship involved.

But the GOP Bills were pretty ridiculous. Cornyn's bill gave lip service to denying sales to terrorists but the requirement of 3 days to prove in court their terrorist intentions is quite obviously a transparent attempt to pretend action. And as your quote states, Gravey's bill would allow people to buy guns as soon as their commitment is over. Getting out of the psych ward and immediately being able to buy guns is a weakening of even the current laws.
Denying sales to terrorists seems quite a noble and sensible idea. But who defines what a terrorist is, and who is one, especially when no crime has been committed. The problem with that is that police and prosecutors (District Attorneys), who are elected in the US BTW, could decide to broaden the definition and applicability of people who 'could' be terrorists, without any judicial oversight. Bureaucrats and state functionaries will always stretch the intent of a law into its literal reading, if that's what it takes to nail someone. That's why the GOP want some judicial oversight before someone is definitely banned from buying guns, despite no criminality having been committed.

Already in California, police have been seizing guns from 'mentally ill' people. That seems reasonable until one realises that a signifiant numbers of 'mentally ill' people happen to be ex-service people who got PTSD as a result of combat. Most of these people are not a threat to anybody, yet their guns have/are being seized, and they have been using SWAT teams to do it creating a big show, just because their VA medical records were labeled as 'mentally ill'.

The gun grabbers are out to eliminate guns in society, step by step. It is part of the neo-liberal doctrine of turning the population into sheeple. They will always argue that they want to ban the most dangerous guns..... until there are none left, of course.
 

basketcase

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Denying sales to terrorists seems quite a noble and sensible idea. But who defines what a terrorist is, and who is one, especially when no crime has been committed. The problem with that is that police and prosecutors (District Attorneys), who are elected in the US BTW, could decide to broaden the definition and applicability of people who 'could' be terrorists, without any judicial oversight. Bureaucrats and state functionaries will always stretch the intent of a law into its literal reading, if that's what it takes to nail someone. That's why the GOP want some judicial oversight before someone is definitely banned from buying guns, despite no criminality having been committed.

Already in California, police have been seizing guns from 'mentally ill' people. That seems reasonable until one realises that a signifiant numbers of 'mentally ill' people happen to be ex-service people who got PTSD as a result of combat. Most of these people are not a threat to anybody, yet their guns have/are being seized, and they have been using SWAT teams to do it creating a big show, just because their VA medical records were labeled as 'mentally ill'.
The problem is the three day requirement. There are no cases that go to trial with only three days of investigation and prep but that's exactly what Cornyn's bill proposed. His bill might make sense if allowed them to delay sales until a proper examination is completed but instead it is pretending to put in some oversight.
 

wilbur

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The problem is the three day requirement. There are no cases that go to trial with only three days of investigation and prep but that's exactly what Cornyn's bill proposed. His bill might make sense if allowed them to delay sales until a proper examination is completed but instead it is pretending to put in some oversight.
Judges are quite accessible in the US. The proof does not need a trial to be validated, as a trial is the result of a criminal prosecution or a civil suit; yet, nobody is being formally accused here, nor is anybody seeking civil damages. They just have to provide evidence to a judge that a person was flagged, and have the necessary evidence to back that claim. Then the judge issues an order. Ever hear of in injunction? It can happen quite fast.
 

onthebottom

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cunning linguist

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As I said, the whole NRA propaganda is based on paranoid conspiracy theories.
Gotta love how stuff that has already happened in other places of the world, like Canada, are somehow "paranoid conspiracy theories". Registration has already led to reclassification and confiscation/abandonment. Denying it over and over again doesn't make it any less true.
 
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