Harper pulls a Butch Carter

[Kang]

Sorry about bringing a sports reference into a politics thread, but I think the description fits...

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/03/03/4893551-cp.html

OTTAWA - Prime Minister Stephen Harper has served notice of a libel lawsuit against Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and the Liberal Party of Canada. Sources say the prime minister plans to sue over allegations Liberals made pertaining to the Chuck Cadman affair.
The Liberals have asked for a criminal investigation amid allegations that the Conservatives, under then-opposition leader Harper, offered a financial incentive to Cadman to sway his vote in a crucial 2005 Commons showdown.
The Independent MP's widow, now a Conservative candidate, says the incentive was a $1-million life-insurance policy, and she considered it a bribe.
Cadman sided with the Liberals in the vote, and kept then-Prime Minister Paul Martin in office for a few more months.
None of the allegations, which are contained in a soon-to-be-released book, have been proven.

 

[train]

I'm not a basketball fan - so I don't get the Butch Carter reference.

Good move on Harper's part. If the Libs back down it will be yet another time when they are caught looking like bumbling idiots after cheap political tricks. If it goes to court what proof of the bribe offer exists ? The heresay evidence of someone trying to sell books ?

Time for Dion & Co to put up or shut up. It will be interesting to see which way they go. The last time they tried this type of thing it cost them $2 million - and Mulrhoney was probably guilty of something and they still lost.

 

[sailorsix]

It also allows Harper to sidestep any questions in the House of commons by using the line "it is before the courts so I cannot comment".

Libel laws do not apply to anything said within the House of Commons. MP's have protection to shoot off their mouths in the green chamber.

 

[slowpoke]

I'm not a basketball fan - so I don't get the Butch Carter reference.

Good move on Harper's part. If the Libs back down it will be yet another time when they are caught looking like bumbling idiots after cheap political tricks. If it goes to court what proof of the bribe offer exists ? The heresay evidence of someone trying to sell books ?

Time for Dion & Co to put up or shut up. It will be interesting to see which way they go. The last time they tried this type of thing it cost them $2 million - and Mulrhoney was probably guilty of something and they still lost.

It may also just be another of Harper's stunts. The allegations on the Liberal website probably fall a bit short of Libel but Harper would like to pretend he's outraged and threaten legal action to make himself look like an innocent victim. Criticism is expected in politics. So is posturing and obfuscating. I'm sure the CPOC website made allegations about Martin during the sponsorship uproar but I doubt that Martin could have successfully sued anyone over it.

 

[train]

It may also just be another of Harper's stunts. The allegations on the Liberal website probably fall a bit short of Libel but Harper would like to pretend he's outraged and threaten legal action to make himself look like an innocent victim. Criticism is expected in politics. So is posturing and obfuscating. I'm sure the CPOC website made allegations about Martin during the sponsorship uproar but I doubt that Martin could have successfully sued anyone over it.

Let's see how it plays out.

Harper's stunt is in reponse to the Liberal stunt. It's designed too shut them up. I don't know if it will work.

I'm assuming that Harper has found out by now what actually happened ( I don't believe the insurance thing for a minute but maybe there was something else). It seems kind of foolish for the Libs to continue when they don't really know what hand they are playing and Harper does.

I'm not a lawyer but I think the best defense for the Libs is to prove the allegations are true assuming they can't dodge it.

 

[slowpoke]

Let's see how it plays out.

Harper's stunt is in reponse to the Liberal stunt. It's designed too shut them up. I don't know if it will work.

I'm assuming that Harper has found out by now what actually happened ( I don't believe the insurance thing for a minute but maybe there was something else). It seems kind of foolish for the Libs to continue when they don't really know what hand they are playing and Harper does.

I'm not a lawyer but I think the best defense for the Libs is to prove the allegations are true assuming they can't dodge it.

I don't think the Liberals can prove anything. They can only make educated assumptions - just like everyone assumed Martin knew what was going on in the PMO with sponsorship. Lack of proof didn't stop Harper from making political hay out of Martin's misfortune. So Dion's Libs pretty much have to do the same with this. You only get so many opportunities like this and you'd be silly to pass them up.

I don't think Dion looks any more foolish making these allegations than Harper did when he was in opposition and the Libs were on the receiving end. This will hurt Harper politically because it shows that his CPOC are just as capable of corruption as anyone else. Until now, Harper has been getting the benefit of the doubt because he started off with a clean slate. But these allegations of bribing a dying man to subvert democracy are sufficiently sordid to change all that very quickly. The widow and the daughter both have no reason to lie and Harper has admitted to being present when the guys went into Cadman's office. Harper's proximity to this crime looks bad no matter how you slice it. And if the RCMP investigates these allegations, they'll be asking Harper who those guys were and he'll be required to name names etc. This ain't over yet.

 

[train]

Harper's proximity to this crime looks bad no matter how you slice it. And if the RCMP investigates these allegations, they'll be asking Harper who those guys were and he'll be required to name names etc. This ain't over yet.

I think the names of who visited Cadman are known as no one is denying that they tried to persuade him to vote against Martin. What is being denied is that the there was a crime committed. If Harper sues the Libs will have to prove an actual crime was committed to get off.

It will be real interesting.

Question: Why did the widow and daughter wait so long to come forward ? Why didn't Cadman not say something himself ?

 

[slowpoke]

I think the names of who visited Cadman are known as no one is denying that they tried to persuade him to vote against Martin. What is being denied is that the there was a crime committed. If Harper sues the Libs will have to prove an actual crime was committed to get off.

It will be real interesting.

Question: Why did the widow and daughter wait so long to come forward ? Why didn't Cadman not say something himself ?

Since Cadman's widow is a candidate for the CPOC, she might never have ever said a word if that book hadn't come to light. Once it became public, the widow had to choose between denying something her late husband had told her - as well as the daughter and the author of the book. She had nowhere to go after that so she admitted what she'd been told.

We have everyone admitting the guys visited Cadman. We have Harper saying he was right there when they went in and that he knew there was going to be some form of financial compensation in their pitch. We have the widow and the daughter saying they were told by a dying man that there was a bribe. We also have Cadman's parliamentary assistant saying the widow was honest and true with no reason to lie. This would make a good soap opera.

 

[Dawgger]

If someone did offer to purchase a$1,000.000.00 life insurance policy fo Mr. Cadman, what insurance were they planning on using?Doubt if any insurance company would insure a terminally ill person.

 

[dcbogey]

If someone did offer to purchase a$1,000.000.00 life insurance policy fo Mr. Cadman, what insurance were they planning on using?Doubt if any insurance company would insure a terminally ill person.

There is speculation that the Conservatives would pay for the continuation of Cadman's policy he had as an MP. Retiring MPs or those that don't get re-elected have the option of paying increased premiums to continue the coverage with NO medical exam.

 

[fuji]

If someone did offer to purchase a$1,000.000.00 life insurance policy fo Mr. Cadman, what insurance were they planning on using?Doubt if any insurance company would insure a terminally ill person.

Sure they would. They'd charge a $1mil premium for a $1mil contract and make money by investing the $1mil in t-bills until he died. It can even be a smart tax move to buy life insurance for someone who is sure to die soon, because insurance payments skip probate, and depending on the situation, may minimize estate taxes.

Of course offering to buy such a policy for someone in exchange for their vote is criminal, smart tax move or not.

That said it sounds more likely that they were planning to pay his insurance premiums for him to keep his existing MP insurance running after he ceased being an MP, rather than take out a new policy.

 

[dcbogey]

Do I think that Harper had any personal knowledge of the "bribe" - no. Does the phrase "plausible deniability" ring a bell? Do I think that someone in the Conservative party stepped over the line - yes.

 

[clubber]

Perhaps all the crap that Harper said in the past about some others will now comeback to haunt him in lawsuites from others. He got away with a lot of crap as opposition leader. He gets away with a lot still. I remember Mulroney hiding behind a lawsuit. That was after he was out of office however. I would say this lawsuit is Harper admitting to his own guilt.

 

[LancsLad]

Perhaps all the crap that Harper said in the past about some others will now comeback to haunt him in lawsuites from others. He got away with a lot of crap as opposition leader. He gets away with a lot still. I remember Mulroney hiding behind a lawsuit. That was after he was out of office however. I would say this lawsuit is Harper admitting to his own guilt.

We'll see. little celine dion will be on hers knees sucking back the big one to pay the damages on this baby.

 

[train]

Perhaps all the crap that Harper said in the past about some others will now comeback to haunt him in lawsuites from others. He got away with a lot of crap as opposition leader. He gets away with a lot still. I remember Mulroney hiding behind a lawsuit. That was after he was out of office however. I would say this lawsuit is Harper admitting to his own guilt.

Lol....that is the most convoluted bit of logic I have ever seen. Are you post-menopausal ?