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House Passes Minimum Wage Increase

onthebottom

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US House passed a minimum wage increase today - off to the Senate to compromise. NPR reported today that 500,000 people make minimum wage, seemed like a small number to me. I tend to think this is class warfare theater but my prediction is that Bush will sign it into law once the Senate add a thing or two for Rs.

OTB
 

papasmerf

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well that decreases my eanings
 

onthebottom

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papasmerf said:
well that decreases my eanings
You must own a small business that employs hourly workers? I think there may be a tax cut coming to you (after all, why should you pay for the social engineering of Congress).

OTB
 

papasmerf

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onthebottom said:
You must own a small business that employs hourly workers? I think there may be a tax cut coming to you (after all, why should you pay for the social engineering of Congress).

OTB
The problem with social engineers is they live in ivory towers
 

onthebottom

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papasmerf said:
The problem with social engineers is they live in ivory towers
Marble one's I think.

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onthebottom

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bbking said:
... I would expect an add on for some kind of tax relief for small bus. earnings. I guess the question will be what is a small biz?


bbk
Don't know, the whole thing is political masturbation but then that's a redundant phrase.

OTB
 

clubber

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How on earth do people live on minimum wage? Years ago talking to a lady from Denmark she said their minimum wage equalled 18 dollars an hour US. Each person was given 5 weeks vacation when they started. Since then I looked it up talked with tons of people in Europe by internet and found their companies do alot more for the workers. I investigated, and found this to be true. Somehow their workers are less stressed, and easily earn back this increase. They also spend more money take more trips, and the extra time off often leads to better family life. Executives do not own as many ivory back scratchers as they do in the US.

We need to find ways of getting the profits of our labours in the hands of those that actually do the work, and less in the hands of those who push pencils and move money around. The minimum wage increase is small but a good baby step forward.
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
..nah it's something that needed to be done, the biggest effect will be for the part-time workforce who work for fortune 500 companies not small business.
No, governments shouldn't be setting wage rates. There are only 500k people making this wage - won't have much of an effect.

bbking said:
It will also put full time labour back into industries that have been hiring illegal workers because the salary was to small for tax paying citizens.
You don't pay income taxes in the US if you make 5.00 an hour. You do pay payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare), and you pay those regardless of the legality of your status. I would argue that there is only a negative issue on employment of the no-skill labor (and that's what minimum wage workers are).

bbking said:
The actual harm to small business will not be significant and a tax cut in the small business (50 employees or less) is much needed and would mitigate costs.
Agreed

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onthebottom

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clubber said:
How on earth do people live on minimum wage? Years ago talking to a lady from Denmark she said their minimum wage equalled 18 dollars an hour US. Each person was given 5 weeks vacation when they started. Since then I looked it up talked with tons of people in Europe by internet and found their companies do alot more for the workers. I investigated, and found this to be true. Somehow their workers are less stressed, and easily earn back this increase. They also spend more money take more trips, and the extra time off often leads to better family life. Executives do not own as many ivory back scratchers as they do in the US.

We need to find ways of getting the profits of our labours in the hands of those that actually do the work, and less in the hands of those who push pencils and move money around. The minimum wage increase is small but a good baby step forward.
European labor markets are a mess, that's why they make much less than we do and have much higher unemployment. Believe me, we don't want that on this side of the pond.

OTB
 

clubber

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onthebottom said:
European labor markets are a mess, that's why they make much less than we do and have much higher unemployment. Believe me, we don't want that on this side of the pond.

OTB

Odd I talk to alot of people in England, Germany, Sweden, one in Denmark all the time on the net. They claim their labour market is doing great. Only one I heard had a problem was from this hot gal I talk to in Italy. We occassionally do chat about things like that. We hear alot of things going on about how awful things are in Europe. I remember a huge headline about how their generous sick time is being taken advantage of in Sweden. I asked all 22 of my Swedish friends about this. Not one had heard of this over there.

Remember always the point of view of our news media. It is owned and operated by big companies, who put out only that what Big Business wishes you to see. Even the CBC is ever increasingly dependent on advertisers, most who can afford the high priced CBC time are Big Companies. They want to keep the prices of the work force down.

Oddly they opened a Walmart in Germany and nobody came. Oh they have many excuses as to why their 85 stores failed. The main reason is Germans want quality, and have the money to afford it. This means that they pay workers more money to give them better stuff. These workers then can afford better stuff themselves. You see it is a nice circle, as opposed to our circle. We want bargin basement stuff, so we pay workers lower wages, we have to replace this stuff alot more so there really is no cost saving but a ton of waste. Now the Chinese come in and offer even cheapers stuff, so now we by from the Chinese until some else offers us even less. Is it any wonder why our middle class is shrinking and the poor classes are growing.

You pay for what you get and get what you pay for.
 

papasmerf

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bbking said:
They raised the min. wage Papa not lowered it.


bbk
Yea I know


now you need follow the effects of cost increases to those who do not work for the government and are not on welfare. They will get no increase in pay, because they earn over minimum wage and do not get automatic cost of living increases.
 

Never Compromised

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A minimum wage should not exist, I'm sorry. Increasing the minimum wage is going to increase unemployment and increase the "illegal" workforce. Stupid policy IMHO.
 

Never Compromised

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bbking said:
...and I would also like to hear your views on child labour. Clearly paying a person a "living" wage is not high on your priorities why should child labour or even indentured servitude be also - wouldn't those proposals also help business keep labour costs low?

bbk
Don't mix apples with vodka.

Abviously child labour is wrong, as it keeps citizens from an eduction and being more productive. In the long run, we all benefit from an educated society.

I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I belive that we all should be given the opportunity to become our best, but that we are all different and it is impossible to enforce confomity.

A minimum wage is a bad idea in economic terms. There is no such thing as a "living wage", as the minimum wage goes up, so does inflation, wiping out any gains to the individuals that benefited. And as with all things, with winners, come losers. An increase in a minimum wage means either layoffs, or businesses close because of the increased pressure on profits.

Socialism does not work.
 

clubber

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Compromised said:
Don't mix apples with vodka.

Abviously child labour is wrong, as it keeps citizens from an eduction and being more productive. In the long run, we all benefit from an educated society.

I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I belive that we all should be given the opportunity to become our best, but that we are all different and it is impossible to enforce confomity.

A minimum wage is a bad idea in economic terms. There is no such thing as a "living wage", as the minimum wage goes up, so does inflation, wiping out any gains to the individuals that benefited. And as with all things, with winners, come losers. An increase in a minimum wage means either layoffs, or businesses close because of the increased pressure on profits.

Socialism does not work.
Socialism Capitalism, no ism actually works. We have no pure ism in the world, each country is made up of ideas, some fall in different isms. We are talking reality.

We need minimum wages to protect the lowest paid workers from being ripped off and abused, as we also need laws governing the saftey of the work place. Have you ever actually worked a day in your life. I have worked since I was 5, and had a job ever since. I have also seen many people who have fallen on hard times. Working poor. This name should not exist.

Equality of opportunity does not exist. There is no such thing, and anyone who thinks there is, is living in a fantasty. Everything you are is governed by luck. Your genes, your parents where you were born, being hit by lightning, or a car, the education you get. You can only do the best you can with what you have. There is no equality of opportunity. I have done better than most people in this world money wise, but I am not so arrogant as to think I am better than anyone else because of this. I required help, a hell of alot of it from alot of people and I also know I own alot to luck. This is why alot of celebrites and athletes thank god all the time because they know without something that is not them, they would not of made it. From the moment your mommy and daddy made you, you were born an individual and not equal to any other.
 

Never Compromised

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clubber said:
We need minimum wages to protect the lowest paid workers from being ripped off and abused, as we also need laws governing the saftey of the work place. Have you ever actually worked a day in your life. I have worked since I was 5, and had a job ever since. I have also seen many people who have fallen on hard times. Working poor. This name should not exist.

Equality of opportunity does not exist. There is no such thing, and anyone who thinks there is, is living in a fantasty. Everything you are is governed by luck.
Quite full of yourself, are you not? You don't think that people on this board work? You think that you are the only person that has to study hard, work hard etc? So what if you have been working since you were 5, that does not mean that you are somehow magically endowed with the ability to reason better than others, or that you are somehow in a position to better understand the reality of the world.

As for your assertation that everything is luck, I find that those that trust to luck end up at the bottom of the heap. As Stephen Leacock said "I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it."
 

clubber

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Compromised said:
Quite full of yourself, are you not? You don't think that people on this board work? You think that you are the only person that has to study hard, work hard etc? So what if you have been working since you were 5, that does not mean that you are somehow magically endowed with the ability to reason better than others, or that you are somehow in a position to better understand the reality of the world.

As for your assertation that everything is luck, I find that those that trust to luck end up at the bottom of the heap. As Stephen Leacock said "I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it."

I am sure most here work hard, and pay their taxes. What I am talking about is workers need to support each other. You seem to think that the working poor get what they deserve, even though some of those jobs are actually harder than alot of higher paying jobs. Most people will work hard if given the chance. That is what people need is the chance.

I would like to take luck out of it. When I helped get the Wet/Dry progam in my city going the wages were very low, it attracted alot of desperate people. Too a couple this job got them off the streets and into a place to live. It was a very low paying job. They are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen. I would put them right up with the miners I worked with. Every single one of these sorter had a hard luck tale that would make you cry.

In any situation if you listen to people you will hear a few hard luck tales. For everyone who made it big you will hear of the person who helped them, or people, or of that one moment when something great happened. They walked in the right door.

You tell me that a person who comes from an abusive family situation has the same opportunity as someone who comes from a loving wealthy situation. Alot of people in prison would of made great business men, just they delt in the wrong business, the easiest business the could find. Drugs prostitution.

Look at what you have and think where did it come from? How did I get this? Think of the people who helped you on the way, the situations that you were able to take advantage of. Then think what would of happened if you did not get these. If you were born to a different family, had to quit school in grade 10. Maybe what would of happened if you spent your childhood years fighting a disease, or ended up in a wheel chair.


Where would all the great hockey players be if people before them had not created the game. Where would Bill Gates be if he was born before the computer.

The country, the time we are born, our parents and even our DNA are things we have no control over, yet all of these are what makes us. All we can do is the best we can with what we have, and try to make things better for others.
 

papasmerf

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bbking said:
That's not what I was referring to. If a salary is perceived as too low, ordinary citizens will not seek them out - leaving a market for the underpaid illegal labour of Central America

bbk


Where the frig do you live?????????
 

Gyaos

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onthebottom said:
You don't pay income taxes in the US if you make 5.00 an hour.
Ah, ah, ah. You do pay them. It's taken out nevertheless, but returned from the standard deduction. And the interest is collected by the government. Workers never get back the interest, unless the government made a mistake and had to pay it back or one amends after the filing year.

Then after the Fed's, there's state taxes too. Each state is different. A double whammy, a double return. But who knows how to file taxes making $5.00/hr, like filing as an independent contractor w/ nothing taken out, then paying illegal "self-employed" taxes if you make too much, etc., etc., etc.

Gyaos Baltar.
 

onthebottom

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DonQuixote said:
You're correct. There is are the federal and state employment taxes
as well as the city tax in certain communities. There's also gasoline
tax, sales tax, auto license tax, real estate tax, etc.

Some taxes are paid directly, others are passed on
by the employer, landlord, etc.

OTB watches too much Fox and Rush.
He's being so abused by the bottom
end of the economic pyramid.
I called out payroll taxes explicitly in my post so I'm not quite sure what you point is. I also made the point that we're talking about 500k workers and that it would have no real effect so I'm not quite sure what the point of your last paragraph is.

OTB
 
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