Is this all just teacher bashing?

Regular Guy

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I have read with interest and not a little disappointment the comments bashing teachers. It is simple bashing because that is what it is. It is bereft of fact and logic and based on bits and pieces of second hand information or individual experiences generalized to the entire profession. So let’s get the facts on just a few of the key issues. To that end I am reposting comments I have made on another thread.
Not once in this entire discussion has it been mentioned though that contributions to education are not only made by teachers. Some of the most influential contributions come from principals, and school boards who set their own brand of policy at their respective levels. Some of the most dramatic influences have their authorship with the Ministry of Education. The most devastating negative influences on the education of our children have their authorship from within this venerable albeit Ivory Tower organization. Consider the Whole Language initiative as a case in point. If memory serves me correctly some of the whining which came from teachers was against this harebrained piece of idiocy. A volume could be written about the wonderful job many teachers have done trying to teach in spite of this. Yet the agents I mentioned above seem to get away scot free.
The pension issue is another matter. At one time the pension was almost entirely controlled by the Ontario government. The entire fund was invested in Ontario government bonds. The returns were less than spectacular. With the advent of the Rae government the union approached with a request that the fund be made into a separate entity and professionals hired to manage it. There were advantages for both sides. The amazing subsequent growth of the fund caught the notice of the public. Certainly it is now a benefit to be envied by all. But in the end analysis the teachers should be congratulated on their success not denigrated. But their success in no way abrogates the original relationship the Ontario government has with the fund.
In terms of job action it is unfortunate for them that teachers perform a service which so completely touches the lives of almost all the people of a province. The optics are not as innocuous as for the employees of say, Xerox. It certainly amplifies any action in the eyes of the public.
A second issue involves initiatives by the Harris government to target major public groups in the service sector to achieve promised budgetary cutbacks. Doctors, with an excellent bargaining position, were ultimately able to prevail. Nurses chose a more subdued approach. Their profession subsequently suffered to the point of a pronounced job dissatisfaction and decline. They are still trying to recover. Teachers chose to fight in the public forum. Again such a path makes for poor optics. The fight got ugly, not guaranteed to arouse sympathy among a public whose tax dollar pays the tune. Harris was no fool. He just couldn’’t lose public backing on this one.
Notwithstanding the fact that like in all professions there are those who do not belong it is my belief that all of the above are largely responsible for the negative public image of teachers. In addition to this there are other factors. At one time there were excesses in terms of discipline still fresh in the memories of the older members of our society. Yet the schools were seen as one of the major influences in the socialization of our children. In the more litigious atmosphere of our society the influence of teachers in the socialization of children has been greatly reduced. Society by and large, I feel, has a sense of betrayal in that respect. In light of the fact that many parents have abrogated the responsibility for raising their children, some parents may feel that the system is failing them. Others, buying into the pop psych crap about the kinder gentler way don’’t understand that the relationship between one on one is different than that between one on thirty. Such parents often fail to discriminate between being a friend to their child and being a pal. They invariably insist on the same approach on the part of the teacher. The policy of integration is another issue. Children or teenagers who have (to cite one of many examples) been identified as ““extreme behaviour”” cases are now kept in the classroom and fail to receive the ‘‘necessary’’ intervention they require. Having an EA, if one is available does not begin to address the issue adequately. I will leave it to your imagination as to how that may change the dynamic within the class. And the stories children bring home can’’t help but influence public perception.
I have not covered all of the issues but a more comprehensive treatment is beyond the scope of this forum. Burnout rate, attrition rate among new teachers and many other relevant issues need to be brought to the fore. So if you wonder why I feel many here are ““shooting from the lip””, that is why. The whole discussion up to now has suffered from an appalling lack of first, fact, second, objectivity and third, logical premise. Without these, it does teachers a great disservice and, second, definitely fails to rise above the level of ““bashing.”” IMHO educated people should refrain from being a part of any of the threads here related to this topic unless they are able to contribute in a more enlightened fashion. I don't feel this is an unreasonable expectation on my part.
 

LancsLad

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Nice treatise but please consider this. Perhaps the average taxpayer, who makes FAR less ( all benefits included) than the average teacher is just more than a little fed up at the pamered union elite constantly whinning for more, and getting it .

In the real world, raises, extended sabbaticals, monster sick time allowance and tings of that nature just do not happen. Our customers cant and wont pay for it, whereas with teachers the taxpayers just keep getting bigger bills each year.

I wouls suggest a little less sanctimonious put downs and a little more realism.
 

Regular Guy

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Average?

Nice treatise but please consider this. Perhaps the average taxpayer, who makes FAR less ( all benefits included) than the average teacher is just more than a little fed up at the pamered union elite constantly whinning for more, and getting it .
What is this about Average? I thought I was clear about the virtual impossibility of comparing careers. There is a tremendous fallacy of reasoning here. Not only are you comparing types of jobs each of which may have its own quirks and perks but you are also throwing a person's level within those jobs and the particular vagaries. You can't compare the CEO of a corporation with the guy who does electrical maintenance no more than you can compare the guy who drives transport for one or two months in the winter over frozen lakes and makes $80,000 to the guy who runs a street sweeper. Each job has so many unique properties that the concept of finding an average is a ludicrous proposition. You are expressing a sentiment. That's all. The best you can say is that to you it just feels wrong. In an intelligent debate that's not much to hang your hat on.

I wouls suggest a little less sanctimonious put downs
Let's address the argument shall we?
 

Yuri

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LancsLad said:
Nice treatise but please consider this. Perhaps the average taxpayer, who makes FAR less ( all benefits included) than the average teacher is just more than a little fed up at the pamered union elite constantly whinning for more, and getting it .

In the real world, raises, extended sabbaticals, monster sick time allowance and tings of that nature just do not happen. Our customers cant and wont pay for it, whereas with teachers the taxpayers just keep getting bigger bills each year.

I wouls suggest a little less sanctimonious put downs and a little more realism.
As the author of the root thread that initiated the current debate on TERB (see the thread regarding Teachers & Pensions), LancsLad, you are 100% correct. That was the my original suggested/implied conceptual idea behind the initial thread.

Taxpayers are the ones who will pay for excessive retirenment renumeration benefits (my opinion) to teaching professionals. I do not have issues with Teachers, repeat, I have no issues with Teachers, however what I do object to is:

1. Where & Was there public debate and/or taxpayer endoresement of the current contractual obligations Ontario taxpayers are now obligated to honour with life-long Teacher Employment contracts.

2. Who is protecting my Rights, as a taxpayer, regarding Public policy issues (ie. the educational funding formula) which are than enacted into Law without any recourse or amending mechanisms.

3. Who is championing the rights of the 100,000's of people who have no real hope of attaining a descent income level in their retirement years, whereas only a small group of individuals have attained unprecedented control & influence over public income distribution policies.
 

LancsLad

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Regular Guy said:
What is this about Average? I thought I was clear about the virtual impossibility of comparing careers. There is a tremendous fallacy of reasoning here. Not only are you comparing types of jobs each of which may have its own quirks and perks but you are also throwing a person's level within those jobs and the particular vagaries. You can't compare the CEO of a corporation with the guy who does electrical maintenance no more than you can compare the guy who drives transport for one or two months in the winter over frozen lakes and makes $80,000 to the guy who runs a street sweeper. Each job has so many unique properties that the concept of finding an average is a ludicrous proposition. You are expressing a sentiment. That's all. The best you can say is that to you it just feels wrong. In an intelligent debate that's not much to hang your hat on.



If the shoe fits.......

I'm not comparing a CEO to an electrician or a guy running a street sweeper. I am comparing someone making an average Canadaian wage and how they feel about the teachers who they pay for thru taxes making so much more in salary and benefits than them.

You can play with wording all you want but to make so much more and have all that holiday, vacation, development, personal time and sick leave time while claiming to be so busy just does not sit right with the guy who works 49 weeks per year with no paid prep time for his job just to pay your salary.

My shoe does fit and I bought it using after tax funds from the profits made when my company sells a product to a willing customer. So I will comment any damn time I choose to.
 

Regular Guy

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1. Where & Was there public debate and/or taxpayer endoresement of the current contractual obligations Ontario taxpayers are now obligated to honour with life-long Teacher Employment contracts.
Not sure what you mean by life-long.

2. Who is protecting my Rights, as a taxpayer, regarding Public policy issues (ie. the educational funding formula) which are than enacted into Law without any recourse or amending mechanisms.
Isn't that the task of your elected representatives?


3. Who is championing the rights of the 100,000's of people who have no real hope of attaining a descent income level in their retirement years, whereas only a small group of individuals have attained unprecedented control & influence over public income distribution policies.
All unions have the right to negotiate benefits for their members. The teachers pension fund is a model which can be made to apply to any group if they push for it. The only group which has control and influence over public income distribution policiy are those responsible for the public purse, the elected representatives. You elect them.
 

incognito6969

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If teaching is such a great job, why are you not all lined up to jump in the classroom. Lets face it, most people with a University degree, 2 if you count teachers college (which it is a seperate degree) make an equal amount to what any teacher makes. I have also seen what comes off of their check to union and pension dues, if I invested that much my self into my retirement, I would not be far behind them when I turn 60.
Bottom line teaching is an open opportunity there has to be a reason not everyone is lining up for it, God knows i wouldn't do it
 

Regular Guy

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I'm not comparing a CEO to an electrician or a guy running a street sweeper. I am comparing someone making an average Canadaian wage and how they feel about the teachers who they pay for thru taxes making so much more in salary and benefits than them.
So your average wage earner sitting in the middle should in theory feel that way about anyone making more than them. All jobs have different levels of salary and benefits, so what.

You can play with wording all you want but to make so much more and have all that holiday, vacation, development, personal time and sick leave time while claiming to be so busy just does not sit right with the guy who works 49 weeks per year with no paid prep time for his job just to pay your salary.
No one could ever defend their job based on this. I thought I made that clear. When you compare jobs the differences can be enormous. The guy who places charges in holes drilled in rock for mining purposes only works 50% of the time, three months on, three months off(I personally spoke with one) yet gets paid for a full year. Shouldn't we all be upset with that?

My shoe does fit and I bought it using after tax funds from the profits made when my company sells a product to a willing customer. So I will comment any damn time I choose to.
You know? In retrospect I apologize for that statement. It was spoken in frustration with the lack of fact and the overall shallow treatment accorded this debate. I was stooping to the level of the poster who titled his thread, "Teachers Disgust Me." And I would hope I am better than that. Just as I would hope I would not stoop to referring to anyone's arguments as "sanctimonious put downs."
 

Cinema Face

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In all fairness to teachers, there are many excellent, dedicated teachers out there. Like any career, teaching does have it's challenges.

However, teachers are probably the whiniest bunch ever. Theirs is a culture of elitism and entitlement, much more so than any other profession.
 

scouser1

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those who state that teachers are whiners are only listening to the union leaders, these self important pseudo Bolshevik righteous idiots deem themselves to speak for all teachers, in the same manner that you get certain groups claiming to represent all people of a specific ethnic or religious group, as a teacher I can assure you I am totally disgusted with the unions the horror comes up every two weeks when I see their deductions on my pay cheque, the excuse being that oh well if you had a case filed against you by a student or a parent, they are there to protect you. I am a short guy with a disability, about as threatning to a student or a parent as a chipmunk, so they can spare me their arguments claiming to "represent" me
 

LancsLad

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scouser1 said:
those who state that teachers are whiners are only listening to the union leaders, these self important pseudo Bolshevik righteous idiots deem themselves to speak for all teachers, in the same manner that you get certain groups claiming to represent all people of a specific ethnic or religious group, as a teacher I can assure you I am totally disgusted with the unions the horror comes up every two weeks when I see their deductions on my pay cheque, the excuse being that oh well if you had a case filed against you by a student or a parent, they are there to protect you. I am a short guy with a disability, about as threatning to a student or a parent as a chipmunk, so they can spare me their arguments claiming to "represent" me

If more teachers like you were vocal about it perhaps those union demi-gods could be reined in some. In the court of public opinion your own leaders are your worst enemies.
 

multiman

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I have to agree with Incognito, after working in various fields for 20 some years I was asked to teach my trade at a college level. I don't see a huge group of people beating down the door to take teaching jobs.

As a professor now, there are many misconceptions as to vacation pay, development leave, sabaticals etc. All of those things that we have were granted via the standard union/management negotiation process.

I work hard for my money and hopefully put out a quality product "my students", hopefully they will go on to make the workplace better and lead fufilling lives.
 

Questor

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Thanks Regular Guy for initiating an intelligent discussion. I really don't believe those who continue to lash out at teachers know what they are talking about. If they did, they would be quoting facts rather than spewing hatred. So how much does a Toronto elementary school teacher make, if it such an outrageous amount? How much has their pay increased over the last 10 years, if their pay increases are so much? And how does the pay compare to salaries in professions with similar qualifications? If the allegations are true, I'd reallly be interested to know the facts, rather than vague accusations that really amount to nothing.
 

frankcastle

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LL,

So basically you're really just complaining about how your tax dollars are being spent. In my opinion taxpayers are the largest and whiniest group.

If you voted then that was your chance to speak up.

Now don't forget that teachers pay the same taxes as anyone else so we are paying into the education system as well.

Don't blame people for having an education and choosing a good job.

Teaching like many other good jobs are reasonably accessible to people so if you can hack it come on and in and join us (or some other job).

If you are not interested in changing your station in life then you have no right to complain (you.... being figurative and not literally you.... LL)
 

frankcastle

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Good points Questor let's throw this out there.

A teacher's pay depends on their qualifications. If you have taken enough university courses in your teaching area and after teaching 2 years in your area and taking a summer course in your 11th year of teaching you will max out at.... roughly $85 000 (most teachers start $32 to $36 K). After that pay raises depend on contract negotiations I think the last contract was 3% over three years.

You might make an extra $1 000 if you have an extra degree such as a master's degree or phd.

You might make an extra $1000 or so if you are the head of a department (this number varies greatly as the amount depends on the size of the department so a english or math head will make more than say a art head).

As for education most people take a 3 to 4 year program for their bachelors and then 1 yr teacher's college.

I know some people who took 2 year college mech eng programs and started at 45 K.... don't know where it goes from there. I'm sure there are lots of jobs that pay better and with less education.
 

Pilotas

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frankcastle or anyone, I would be interested in knowing more facts about teachers renumeration.i.e.
vacation entitlement
sick leave (i have heard that they can accrue their leave if not taken - is this true?)
how much union fee $'s per annum
prep time allowance (and is it really needed if they have been teaching the same course yeaer in year out?)
Any other benifits I haven't thought about?
 

scouser1

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Pilotas said:
frankcastle or anyone, I would be interested in knowing more facts about teachers renumeration.i.e.
vacation entitlement
sick leave (i have heard that they can accrue their leave if not taken - is this true?)
how much union fee $'s per annum
prep time allowance (and is it really needed if they have been teaching the same course yeaer in year out?)
Any other benifits I haven't thought about?
as for prep time allowance it is one period a day for high school teachers depending on what the principal decides thats usually somewhere around an hour or so, as for the need for it, well you get kids with all sorts of abilities in a classroom year in and out, you cant just teach the same way over and over, some have special needs and they need to have lessons catered to what specific needs they have, according to what a parent and a special education teacher decide is best
 

Questor

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Very interesting information frankcastle. 3% over 3 years, eh? Those greedy bastards. LOL It never ceases to amaze me how some people begrudge the fact that other people actually are not horribly exploited in the workplace. Such people would be happy if we all had McJobs at minimum wage (as long as they themselves didn't have to do it). I think you are right on the money about taxpayers being the biggest whiners of all. Now what about those hated teachers pensions? After 40 or 45 years in the classroom, devoted to educating OUR children, just how much of a pension is a teacher entitled to? The objection seems to be that if it is above the poverty line, then it must be too much.
 
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