Does it not make sense to allow (even encourage) everyone to get vaccinated, and take the associated risks, while you and your loved ones free-ride all the way?
Is Vaccine "Free-Riding" Rational?
- Thread starter Closer68
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No.Does it not make sense to allow (even encourage) everyone to get vaccinated, and take the associated risks, while you and your loved ones free-ride all the way?
Look up the concept of herd immunity. If there are enough unvaccinated people, vaccination as a whole becomes less effective in preventing disease.
This is the side effect of effective immunization programs, too many people have never seen the horrors many of these diseases can cause, and have no idea of the statistics of the disease itself.
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It may makes sense to be selfish in this and just hope you don't get exposed to something nasty. Of course you better hope that your neighbours aren't doing the same thing.
It's amazing how it's the members who are too young, the OP being one of them, to remember the polio, small pox, measles, and whooping cough outbreaks of the past except from what they may read in the history books, if they actually read history books. The real pricks are the ones who don't get the vaccine, don't get sick, think they didn't have it, and pass it onto others. I lived in two cities that has hospitals that warehoused those who suffered the polio victims; not a pleasant place.
The short answer is the risks are far outweighed by the benefits, especially to those around you.
The short answer is the risks are far outweighed by the benefits, especially to those around you.
I am pondering spending $25 and getting the yellow fever vaccine in a few days
http://who.int/vaccines/en/yellowfever.shtml
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2007/9789241580397_11_eng.pdf
I got just about every damn immunization known to man in 1 day before going overseas. They ran out of good shoulder meat and had to start on the ass.
That yellow fever one burned going in, I remember. And that was 10 years ago!
That yellow fever one burned going in, I remember. And that was 10 years ago!
It is exactly "herd immunity" that I am referring to. The point I'm making is that it is rational to want everyone else to be vaccinated, other than oneself, also known as free-riding. I am not claiming that vaccines are ineffective, only that they are 99.9999999% as effective for YOU if everyone except YOU are taking them.No.
Look up the concept of herd immunity. If there are enough unvaccinated people, vaccination as a whole becomes less effective in preventing disease.
This is the side effect of effective immunization programs, too many people have never seen the horrors many of these diseases can cause, and have no idea of the statistics of the disease itself.
What is the success rate for any given vaccine for any particular individual? Roughly 50%? Not great for an individual, but fantastic for society as a whole via herd immunity. So it's sort of like prisoner's dilemma, it almost doesn't matter what your neighbor does....It may makes sense to be selfish in this and just hope you don't get exposed to something nasty. Of course you better hope that your neighbours aren't doing the same thing.
Intellectually, and mathematically, I guess you're right. But in every practical sense, it's just idle speculation, because you will never know if the rest of the 'herd' got the shots.It is exactly "herd immunity" that I am referring to. The point I'm making is that it is rational to want everyone else to be vaccinated, other than oneself, also known as free-riding. I am not claiming that vaccines are ineffective, only that they are 99.9999999% as effective for YOU if everyone except YOU are taking them.
For example, did I get the latest hot n' sassy flu shot? And am I standing next to you at Tim Hortons every day?
I think you're missing my point. I am a firm believer in the benefits of vaccination FOR POPULATIONS. However, I believe it makes infinitely more sense to free-ride FOR INDIVIDUALS. Why do you disagree?It's amazing how it's the members who are too young, the OP being one of them, to remember the polio, small pox, measles, and whooping cough outbreaks of the past except from what they may read in the history books, if they actually read history books. The real pricks are the ones who don't get the vaccine, don't get sick, think they didn't have it, and pass it onto others. I lived in two cities that has hospitals that warehoused those who suffered the polio victims; not a pleasant place.
The short answer is the risks are far outweighed by the benefits, especially to those around you.
Populations are made up of individuals. If an action is rational for one individual, then logically it is rational for all individuals. Therefore, your logic fails miserably.I think you're missing my point. I am a firm believer in the benefits of vaccination FOR POPULATIONS. However, I believe it makes infinitely more sense to free-ride FOR INDIVIDUALS. Why do you disagree?
Well, shit, I'll take it! Lol.Intellectually, and mathematically, I guess you're right.
Well you won't know this even if you take the risk of getting vaccinated, right? So what's the difference? We both know that if nobody got vaccinated, then nasty diseases would kill everyone like they used to. But what if ONE person got vaccinated? Would he be better off? I honestly don't believe so.But in every practical sense, it's just idle speculation, because you will never know if the rest of the 'herd' got the shots.
False.Populations are made up of individuals. If an action is rational for one individual, then logically it is rational for all individuals. Therefore, your logic fails miserably.
My point is that if individuals were presented with just two choices A) EVERYONE gets vaccinated or B) NOBODY gets vaccinated, then it is rational for every individual to choose A. However, there is actually a third choice, which is C) EVERYONE gets vaccinated EXCEPT YOU.
Did you actually think that one through before posting because if certainly sounds like you didn't.But what if ONE person got vaccinated? Would he be better off? I honestly don't believe so.
Your logic doesn't fly.I think you're missing my point. I am a firm believer in the benefits of vaccination FOR POPULATIONS. However, I believe it makes infinitely more sense to free-ride FOR INDIVIDUALS. Why do you disagree?
If you don't get vaccinated, you don't get protected.
For many illnesses, and at statistically significant levels you will still be exposed to the disease in question from people who are carriers or have it and don't come down with symptoms because they have been vaccinated.
While there is some benefit to trying to be a free rider, the simple fact is that the very small chance of having an adverse reaction is less than the risk of being unvaccinated when exposed to the disease, which will still happen even in a highly vaccinated population.
So the rational choice remains get vaccinated.
Of course to do the calculus properly you would need to know each vaccine and the statistics, vectors and epidemiology statistics around the underlying disease, and the stats for adverse reactions and actually do the analysis on a disease/vaccine basis for each vaccine. But overall I understand that even as an individual the rational choice is to get vaccinated because it lowers your risk below the free ride level.
everyone should be vaccinated. those that refuse should be banned from public spaces- schools, ttc, parks, grocery stores etcDoes it not make sense to allow (even encourage) everyone to get vaccinated, and take the associated risks, while you and your loved ones free-ride all the way?
The OP doesn't realize or care to realize that if you tell 'everyone' to get vaccinated, it's almost certain everyone won't as they're too lazy, too apathetic, too stupid, too whatever. So whatever number gets vaccinated, 75%, 50%, or even as little as 25% penetration, they will be better off and those around them will be better as well. It's a no brainer.everyone should be vaccinated. those that refuse should be banned from public spaces- schools, ttc, parks, grocery stores etc
if you are getting a number of different shots regularly for your travels you should have been given a small blue passport recording your shots and boosters history. There are a number of travel clinics throughout TO that specialize in shots, disease, and treatments for very many tropical and not so tropical maladies. If it's only a one off trip they will know what shots are needed for what areas. Some shot are multi step ones requiring some tie between them, so give yourself the required time.I think only 15% of the people that contract it and experience more than flu-like symptoms die.. but then should I decide to enter Ecuador and Peru in the next 2 weeks via bus, I will need the certificate
You obviously put a lot of thought into your response, right? Anyway, does everyone who gets vaccinated become immune? We all know that's not the case. So what do you believe the success rate is? Put some thought into that, wiseguy.Did you actually think that one through before posting because if certainly sounds like you didn't.
I like the intro, this should be good.Your logic doesn't fly.
How well do you understand herd immunity? Isn't that the very point of vaccination programs?If you don't get vaccinated, you don't get protected.
Such as?For many illnesses, and at statistically significant levels you will still be exposed to the disease in question from people who are carriers or have it and don't come down with symptoms because they have been vaccinated.
Great, so we have established that there IS benefit in free-riding because there IS risk associated with vaccination. Tremendous.While there is some benefit to trying to be a free rider, the simple fact is that the very small chance of having an adverse reaction is less than the risk of being unvaccinated when exposed to the disease, which will still happen even in a highly vaccinated population.
Now, since you're weighing the cost/benefit here, I'm feeling optimistic that you'll be able to substantiate this. Because if you can, then you might be right and I might be wrong. Is there data available on the relative risk vs benefit?
Really depends on individual success rate. If it's 50/50, and it might be, then I'd say you're wrong.So the rational choice remains get vaccinated.
How else are you doing the math? Just look at how hard the government pushes vaccination programs. Why would they do that if herd immunity didn't comprise a significant source of protection for the population?Of course to do the calculus properly you would need to know each vaccine and the statistics, vectors and epidemiology statistics around the underlying disease, and the stats for adverse reactions and actually do the analysis on a disease/vaccine basis for each vaccine. But overall I understand that even as an individual the rational choice is to get vaccinated because it lowers your risk below the free ride level.
