just a thought the next day

[scouser1]

ater listening to all the comments and seeing the media on the year anniversary of the September 11 attacks i just had to put in my two cents worth.

First let me begin by saying that any murder of innocent human beings anywhere is disgusting and should be abhorred and those who commit such acts should be brought to justice to answer for those acts and be punished.

But i have to wonder when did the United States of America get a monopoly on suffering, this attack was not new at all in some parts of the world, what it did was bring closer to home that horrors like this happen to people everyday around the world, ask an Afghan, Palestinian, Rwandan or Kurd, and they will be able to tell you that it does. Second I am sick and tired of CNN and the American media becoming mouth pieces and puppets of the Bush Administration, when did media in a free country stop becoming a voice to question and dissent against the government and start becoming its tool, and dont even get me started on this disgusting Hollywood types that met with Bush and his cronies after the attacks to see how they can work together.

so in closing to my tirade i have to say let us all remember that horrors are perpetrated almost everyday in the world, and the next time you turn to CNN try switching to another channel or another website on the net, might i suggest going on the BBC news website search engine and typing in the words Taliban and Texas together, oh the results will be interesting.

 

[Sargeant StiffCock]

Well said Scouser. This stuff happens every day in some countries. People please grow up, stop crying and learn to deal with it. I grew up as a Christian in a Muslim middle eastern country. Heck we used to get caught right in the middle of gun fights on our way to or from school. I've seen hundreds of innocent people die right in front of me, it was no big deal, we were used to it. I was not at all happy to see 9/11 happen but hey, it happened. North Americans don't know how lucky they are that they don't have to deal with this stuff every day. It's actually interesting to see the strongest (in almost every sense) country in the world cry like a baby so long after htis incident.

 

[Chivas Regal]

And we haven't seen the end of it...

9/11 was just the beginning. Hatred never goes away, ask an Irishman.

I don't think we have seen the end of terrorism in N.A. , as a matter of fact I'd bet on that. As much as I can't stand the man, Cretien actually had a point yesterday when he said the west is partially to blame for what happened.

Another point - Bush Jr. is a war monger like his father. He was low in the polls-popularity wise until 9-11, and as he dipped again he decided it was time to blow the shit out of So Dam Insane. This is definately not in the How to Win Friends and Influence People manual! Stephen Covey should spend some quality time with George Dubbya.

 

[Malibook]

Certain tragedies effect various people to varying degrees.

I am still saddened by 9/11/01 but it does not mean that I think anything less of the numerous other horrific realities.
Nor does it mean that I can't deal with it.
This event has not prevented me from continuing to enjoy my life, in fact it has enhanced my appreciation for my life.

People mourn in different ways and for varying lengths of time, so what?

Why would anyone criticize someone else for mourning too much or for too long?

 

[pool]

Scouser,

Its always a relief to see that there are those who have some ability to grasp the so called "big picture"

----------------

It is understandable that people who are not surrounded by such acts of violence everyday will be more shocked and react differently in dealing with it. What is truly sad is that there are those people in this world who have become desensitized and have lost some of the value of human life.

One image that still haunts me is that of some citizens of the middle east cheering, when they heard of the destruction of the world trade center. I did however manage to fathom it, at least to an extent. They see death around them on a much more frequent basis and they probably don't put a human face on the victims in that attack. They only see the WTC as a symbol and can only view the USA from their limited perspective ...


____________
There are three truths; your truth, my truth and the truth ...

 

[i am one]

One image that still haunts me is that of some citizens of the middle east cheering, when they heard of the destruction of the world trade center.

The image that haunts me is the blatent racism and ethnic profiling that went on right after and that still continues today.

 

[H4P]

The truth of the matter is that there is no shortage of hatred in the world....on all sides.

There's plenty of hatred in the USA for Arabs, for Muslims.
There's plenty of hatred in the Arab world for Americans, for Jews.
There's plenty of hatred in the Jewish world for Arabs.
There's plenty of hatred in black South African for the whites.
There's plenty of hatred in much of Southeast Asia for the Japanese
There's plenty of hatred in mainland China for Taiwan.
There's plenty of hatred in Western Europe of Jews and Eastern Europeans.
There's plenty of hatred in Quebec for the rest of Canada.
There's plenty of hatred in Catholic Northern Ireland for the British.

And on and on it goes...methinks I've made my point.

The real tragedy of 9-11, and any other violent terrorist act or violent act of war is who it affects.

The majority of the victims of 9-11 didn't have any hatred. They were just going about their daily lives, trying to make a decent living, raise their kids, take care of their families and maybe get a little hobbying in on the side.

This applies to the vast majority of the victims in any armed conflict, terrorist attack, surgical strike, police action etc, etc. The majority of the world doesn't give a shit about ancient conflicts, geo-political power struggles, ethnic uprisings, etc., etc. The majority of the world is too busy trying to live their lives.

Yet it is precisely these people who make up the victims list.

That's the real tragedy of 9-11.

And that's been the real tragedy behind armed conflict throughout history.

later,
h4p

 

[Quest4Less]

Re: And we haven't seen the end of it...

As much as I can't stand the man, Cretien actually had a point yesterday when he said the west is partially to blame for what happened.

Are you INSANE!!! The West is "partially" to blame????? I suppose you think that a rape victim is "partially" to blame for the way she is dressed, or if she is out for a walk alone at night??

There is NO "partially" here... The West is NOT to blame AT ALL! These people are sick F***s and must be treated as such.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think it is important to understand that these attacks did not happen for any reasoning so simple as "they hate our democracy" or "they hate our prosperity". Make no mistake, this is a very complex issue and to reduce it to such simplified sentiments, as the media and Western governments seem to have is, in my opinion, a fatal mistake and a further tragedy.

Where is the moment of sober reflection? Why is no one asking the tough questions surrounding why the West is so despised internationally? Most importantly, when will we understand that this current era of economic imperialism and corporate feudalism is fundamentally damaging to many of the peoples it purports to aid?

The events of 09/11 were bound to happen. If not carried out by al Qaeda then by any number of other militants. What stuns me is not that the attacks came, but that we seem to have missed an incredible opportunity to slow down and truly, soberly examine the effects of the Western ideal of progress on the rest of the world. Perhaps we are doing something wrong. Perhaps we are doing more harm than good in some areas of foreign policy. Is there anything we can do to change this? Can we make lives that are now lived in horror and desperation meaningful and prosperous again? Can we improve the circumstances and standard of living not just for people of industrialized nations but people the world over? Can we do anything to counteract the desperation and hopelessness that precipitates nihilistic attacks like this without resorting to an endless war of attrition?

This is what I mourn this September 11th. The opportunity to ask these questions of ourselves and our governments and the opportunity to act on the answers, lost now almost certainly to a tide of endless, Orwellian-style global conflict and jingoistic rhetoric.

The world did indeed change a year after 09/11...we have thrown an opportunity for healing and redemption to the wind.

Call me a utopian idealist fool, but I believe we could have done better. And now my fear is that it's time has passed forever.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Re: Re: And we haven't seen the end of it...

Are you INSANE!!! The West is "partially" to blame????? I suppose you think that a rape victim is "partially" to blame for the way she is dressed, or if she is out for a walk alone at night??

There is NO "partially" here... The West is NOT to blame AT ALL! These people are sick F***s and must be treated as such.

The West has been complicit in any number of actions that are more than provocative. All are well documented through other news sources, so I won't even bother listing anything here (do your homework).

As one poster mentioned in another thread, dead is dead whether you walk up and shoot me or you spend years starving or slowly poisoning me. By that logic, war is war, economic or otherwise. And the west has been hellbent on a pattern of economic warfare and imperialism since the end of WWII. To make the rape victim analogy is NOT an apples to apples comparison. The West has not only dressed provocatively, we have full on acted provocatively, albeit in a more covert manner. We have hardly behaved as an "innocent woman out walking at night". I'd say we've acted more like a bait and switch sp....to further use the sexual analogy.

And how does one treat sick f**k's as you so tactfully put it? Kill them all, let another generation rise up and take their revenge? How do you identify them? Is dark skin and a foreign accent enough criteria for you to decide who is a terrorist? Why not just carpet bomb the whole middle east?

Eliminate the root causes of the sickness. To merely respond with brute force in kind is to perpetuate the sickness and ensure future generations resentment towards us.

I hope everyone understands I am by no means attempting to justify terrorist acts. I am only suggesting we need a deeper understanding of the reasons why they feel the way they do.

And I like to play devils advocate.....

 

[Sargeant StiffCock]

Just like another poster replied to a similarly "educating" post in a similar thread...I am glad some people see the big picture.

 

[NewCummer]

Re: And we haven't seen the end of it...

As much as I can't stand the man, Cretien actually had a point yesterday when he said the west is partially to blame for what happened.

I am glad to see that not everybody is deaf and blind around here. The other countries have been telling the same thing for decades but nobody listened.

Any life lost is a life lost and usually innocent people die (soldiers are armed, protected and trained) but I have just one question: Do you think that 2 nuclear bombs dropped at Japan qualify for crime against humanity, mass murder or is it just collateral damage?

 

[Malibook]

Good points Dr. Gonzo.
9/11/01 was obviously not a baseless random act, nor are their reasons simply motivated by jealousy.

There are hardliner radicals as well as moderates on both sides.
The issues are very complex and deep rooted.

History has shown that when there are large numbers of people living in misery with no hope for a better life, this is the environment that nurtures uprisings, revolutions, and wars.
These people will certainly strike at those they perceive as suppressors.

9/11 was a wake-up call, but I'm not sure it is an opportunity for revolutionary healing and redemption.
The US can't appear to give in to, and reward terrorism.
Can you imagine Bush announcing that because of 9/11, the US will force Israel to give the consessions required for a real peace deal?
The US has a hunger for justice and revenge that they must quench.
Unfortunately, the sagging US economy is also a factor in Bush's desire to attack Iraq.
Hopefully the peace process will resume again soon with a new perspective and sincere determination for success.

 

[train]

Good perspective Malibook , I would add the following to your list of things that fosters this type of activity :

1 ) organized religion ( catholic vs. protestant , catholic vs. muslim , muslim vs hindu , muslim vs jew . protestant vs.jew )

2 ) control of oil

3 ) ambition / ego of leaders such as Bush/Arafat/Saddam/etc.....would have said Chretien but no one outside of Canada really pays him any attention anyway .

4)History ( I mean the last time there was peace in the middle east was during what ? the Jurassic age ),

Having said all that - those of you who want to blame the US ( as opposed to the west including North America as well as western europe ) .....are you guys just trying out for the editorial staff at the Star or what ?

As far as racial profiling is concerned .....is anybody really content to spend money searching 80 year old ladies from Regina or Sioux Falls at the airports . There is profiling done all the time in other areas such as trying to catch rapists and serial killers . It's a tool that needs to be used , particularly in this situation where race and religion are so clearly part of the reason for hatred . Until that situation is stabilized then you have to be a complete idiot not to consider it . Political correctness is getting just a little bit tiresome when used indescriminately .

 

[The Challenger]

Bleeding heart liberalism

The only way to negotiate is at the end of a gun. They kill one, we kill ten. They bomb one city, we obliterate a nation.

Harsh words true but my lack of patience is growing quickly with those individuals that think that our adversaries have any concern for our souls. Their desire is to paralyze our society and make us unable to go about our lives in peace. The terrorists have already won by the selective profiling of law enforcement of our citizens. We are not dealing with a rational adversary that has explicit desires and an ability for peaceful mediation. We must make them (terrorists of all races and religions) fear for their lives, fear for their children and fear for the obliteration of their God for all time.

While we negotiate and have an open dialogue within our society the terrorists grow stronger and plan their next move against our economy. Do we hand over the advantage to the third world in the name of humanity or do we mercilessly kill those who would kill us? Do not forget Neville Chamberlain. Do not forget the isolationist American views prior to December 7th, 1941. The best way to negotiate with an enemy is with a gun against their head and the trigger cocked! Do not feel sympathy for our Muslim brethren as they have no love for the infidel who is less worthy than any Muslim. Their God is the only God and they are unable to live in peace with their neighbors or tolerate other religions. The Muslims do not understand compassion, tolerance or democracy and we must approach them on their own terms from a position of strength.

If a war must be fought than so be it. If we are to fight a war they we must win the conflict at all costs. No half-assed attempt where we stop at the gates. No armed conflict where there is any doubt of who the victor is and our enemy must understand that we will fight back with a total commitment if we are ever attacked again. We should not go to war over oil but we should go to war with Iraq because their leader has no respect for our lives or our society.

Truly, I believe a war should be fought on a different level than military conflict. I do not want my children to die in armed aggression. I do not want to die a soldier's death. I want to see Western Civilization eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil through alternate fuel supplies and conservation. I want to gain revenge against all Arab oil exporting countries by never having to buy their goods and services ever again. The Middle-East has nothing beyond oil. They have no concept of democracy or freedom and the scientific knowledge that this once proud civilization possessed has been blown away like the sand in the desert. They have destroyed themselves and if they desire a lack of western involvement to settle their differences internally, than our foreign policies should be aligned with their will. If we eliminate the market for their only export than the Arab Nations will surely destroy each other. This isn't sugar-coated conjecture but the harsh reality of the Middle East. Fuck ‘em all!

 

[H4P]

Whoa!

someone pissed on his corn flakes this morning...

later,
h4p

 

[Quest4Less]

Why?

Just exactly why are there starving, poor, desperate people over there? Is it because of something the West has done? I think not... It's because their leaders take the incredible amounts of money flowing their way from oil sales and use it to line their own pockets, build up armies, buy weapons, finance terrorism, etc.... If their leaders invested the money in education, science, food etc... then there would be no more hungry, desperate people. Of course as long as there are evil, power hungry leaders over there then this will not happen. So, who is really to blame?

When I refered to "sick f***s", I was refering to the terrorists, not any particular group. When they are caught you kill them.

 

[scouser1]

ohhh ok lets back up here for a second, 18 or so of the 20 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, high or middle class at least with university educations, so the notion that this is the poor starving peasants rising up against the rich over lords is absolutely nonsense.

Second the whole notion of hey lets bomb the hell out of them, well guess what that doesnt work, all bombing Afghanistan did was Bin Laden and his pals simply picked up and moved elsewhere, into the mountains and oh even better the harder you hit them the longer the line of potential recruits grows. The only sensible way to defeat groups like this is two fold, one is to take a page out of how the European governments defeated their terrorist groups that were running rampant in the 70's and 80's, the Red Brigades in Italy, Red Army Faction in Germany and all others were all rendered useless or completely defeated how not by military force but strong intelligence agencies. Information was gathered and then used against them, we all know how the CIA and FBI messed up pre Sept 11.

Second option the US simply has to change its foreign policy ways, stop being so blatantly cheering while Israel kills Palestinians, stop being such a champion of democracy and then pouring billions into corrupt despotic regimes in the Middle East, that would go great lengths into turning such terrorist groups into complete laughing stocks because once the so called infidel isnt really longer seen as the enemy by the masses, then they have lost their way and their purpose.

 

[Chivas Regal]

Imagine if you will, being so poor that finding food to sustain your life day to day is your whole universe. Do you really think these are the people we should fear???

No my friends, it is the educated [western ed. I might add] leaders of these countries that we should fear. They are here in our midst doing jobs we think are below us, while going to school and getting an education. They return home and tell stories of our opulence and waste. Which riles them up even more. They return home spout thier propaganda, and recruit followers.
Over time, these educated men become tellers of truth's- { false truth's}.

The masses that are repressed, have become brainwashed into believing them and it is easier to organize them as they have a common hate for the West. Does any of this sound familiar??

Just as George Dubbya has done south of us, and his puppet Tony Blair has done we must read between the lines when our leaders speak. Everything that is spewed forth from Bush sounds vaguely familiar to the rantings of Osama, et al. We except what Bush says, because he leads the largest country in the world? I for one am leery. I will not fight someone else's war.

The underlying fact is, Bush senior f'd up by not killing So Dam Insane in the Gulf War. But then again, he did so because the cold war was over and we all know that the US needs an enemy, don't we? It fires the economic engine. As Canadian's we are caught in the middle. Even though our economy is out performing the US now, how long can we sustain it without our largest trading partner pulling out of the doldrums? Not long, I suspect.

Does any of this sound like something that may of happened in the 1930's?
I am concerned, not yet protectionist, but very concerned. History does have a habit of repeating itself. And I think under the guise of being religious, Bush really is a war monger at heart.

Phew......

 

[anonymousSP]

I am not big on politics, nor do I know a lot about foreign policy and the rest of the major contributing factors for or against war. I do know that I, as well as, many other Canadians and Americans are very angry, heartbroken, shocked and disgusted with the occurrence of 9/11. Therefore, for us, something has to be done. If it is war, then it is war. I know it is unfair. I know it brings more killing, and I know that innocent people are going to feel more of the pain then the actual people responsible, but if that is what it takes to stop this from happening again, then so be it. I am sick and tired of feeling sorry for other nations, and having ours put down. I am sick of sending aid to other countries and seeing ours fall apart. The one thing I am most angry about, we taught these terrorist how to fly theses planes, and no one seems to care about that. They used us and then killed many innocent people with the knowledge that they gained from us. What are they doing now, laughing. It is sick. Think of me how ever you want for this statement, but anyone who is a terrorist or who supports terrorism, in my opinion, (not humble I might add) should either be locked up for life or shot dead. How about we start taking care of ourselves first for a change and then worry about the rest of the world. Personally, I think that we should shut our doors to everyone as well. I know it is not fair, but think about it. When you are at home, who do you think about? Your family or the bum on the corner. Are you going to pick him up and offer him food, shelter, a job and some money to get on his feet. Then, what if he came and killed your wife, mother, and kids, because you are american. What would you do? What would you want done to this man? Just because this is a global thing and not something as personal as your own home doesn’t mean it should be handled differently. It is not time to sit and talk anymore. It is time for action. Bush says that her has captured over 2000 terrorist, I am happy for those numbers, but I want more. I want them all. Any country, nation, religion, or person who thinks they can rise up and bomb whomever to get what ever they want, needs to be put down. Just my opinion.

And for those who ask, why is my country right, why is my religion right, I have this answer for you. Because I have never been the first to strike in battle, I have always offered my home, food and love to all who have needed it, and because I have done for over 200yrs. You can only get stabbed in the back so many times before you turn around a strike back. I think we should count the holes in our back and maybe then we will see the truth and reality of life.