Points to ponder while Canada muddles its way through the "tariff war"

[Dutch Oven]

The media is doing a marvelous job of repeating the same inane points and discussing the same old simple-minded strategies. Here are a few points to consider on the road to unravelling what's really going on here:

• Trump has been talking about Canada as the 51st state. He hasn't been talking about Mexico as the 52nd. What do you suppose that says about:
  • Which country he considers the better trading partner?
  • Which country has greater economic potential?
  • Which country is the real problem, both economically and otherwise?
• The US has a 52% share of all foreign investment in Canadian companies. Without doing the math, I think their percentage would only be higher amongst companies which export to the US. They only have a 40% share of foreign investment in Mexican companies, and their overall investment in Mexico is far smaller.
• If tariffs were the true objective, why weren't they imposed immediately?
• Doug Ford just announced an export tax on energy sales to the US. Isn't it the exporter who pays an export tax? Isn't that us, the Ontario taxpayers?
• What would be the job losses in Canada be if Canadian tariffs on American goods cause Canadian companies to downsize or relocate?
• Do you think that the US really wants Quebec, or our indigenous treaties, to manage themselves, or a vastly expanded electorate with liberal leanings?
• How many jobs ever relocated from the US to Canada? What about Mexico? How many jobs migrated from Canada to Mexico? Any vice versa?
• Why do you think Trump has been careful in explaining that there would be an initial period of adjustment but that things would be better for Americans at the end of the process - without ever saying that the endgame would be permanent tariffs?
• Does Canada already have tariffs and/or government subsidies in place to protect specific Canadian industries (such as eggs, milk, beef, wheat)?
• What does the Liberal party have to gain by botching a resolution of these issues, and thereby extending the "tariff war" up until the election?
• Why did Trump, in the context of speaking with Trudeau about these issues, ask him when the next election is going to be? What do the two have to do with one another?

I could go on, but I think the answers to these questions, never discussed in the mainstream media, offer some insight into the real agenda of this phony trade war.

 

[danmand]

The media is doing a marvelous job of repeating the same inane points and discussing the same old simple-minded strategies. Here are a few points to consider on the road to unravelling what's really going on here:

• Trump has been talking about Canada as the 51st state. He hasn't been talking about Mexico as the 52nd. What do you suppose that says about:
  • Which country he considers the better trading partner?
  • Which country has greater economic potential?
  • Which country is the real problem, both economically and otherwise?
• The US has a 52% share of all foreign investment in Canadian companies. Without doing the math, I think their percentage would only be higher amongst companies which export to the US. They only have a 40% share in Mexican companies, and their overall investment in Mexico is far smaller.
• If tariffs were the true objective, why weren't they imposed immediately?
• Doug Ford just announced an export tax on energy sales to the US. Isn't it the exporter who pays an export tax? Isn't that us, the Ontario taxpayers?
• What would be the job losses in Canada be if Canadian tariffs on American goods cause Canadian companies to downsize or relocate?
• Do you think that the US really wants Quebec, or our indigenous treaties, to manage themselves, or a vastly expanded electorate with liberal leanings?
• How many jobs ever relocated from the US to Canada? What about Mexico? How many jobs migrated from Canada to Mexico? Any vice versa?
• Why do you think Trump has been careful in explaining that there would be an initial period of adjustment but that things would be better for Americans at the end of the process - without ever saying that the endgame would be permanent tariffs?
• Does Canada already have tariffs and/or government subsidies in place to protect specific Canadian industries (such as eggs, milk, beef, wheat)?
• What does the Liberal party have to gain by botching a resolution of these issues, and thereby extending the "tariff war" up until the election?
• Why did Trump, in the context of speaking with Trudeau about these issues, ask him when the next election is going to be? What do the two have to do with one another?

I could go on, but I think the answers to these questions, never discussed in the mainstream media, offer some insight into the real agenda of this phoney trade war.

For crissakes, don't try to make it the Liberals problem. Canada has had the same policies visavis USA for decades.
We have a free trade agreement negotiated by Trump himself.
The reason you know the whole thing is phony, is that Trump maintains it is because of Fentanyl.

 

[squeezer]

For crissakes, don't try to make it the Liberals problem. Canada has had the same policies visavis USA for decades.
We have a free trade agreement negotiated by Trump himself.
The reason you know the whole thing is phony, is that Trump maintains it is because of Fentanyl.

Dutchie actually believes Trumputin has thought this through because he believes Trumputin is an intelligent man. LMFAO

 

[Dutch Oven]

For crissakes, don't try to make it the Liberals problem. Canada has had the same policies visavis USA for decades.
We have a free trade agreement negotiated by Trump himself.
The reason you know the whole thing is phony, is that Trump maintains it is because of Fentanyl.

Try thinking about the questions I've posed instead of reflexively coming to the defence of the Trudeau government. There is more to this than the Liberals are crappy leaders in such circumstances.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Dutchie actually believes Trumputin has thought this through because he believes Trumputin is an intelligent man. LMFAO

Trump has some smart people around him. I think hardly any of his policies are of his own personal design. He's the kind of boss who demands his underlings do all the hard parts of his job. However, by underestimating that there is a strategy here and an objective, people of your mindset would surely mismanage Canada's interests.

 

[squeezer]

Trump has some smart people around him. I think hardly any of his policies are of his own personal design. He's the kind of boss who demands his underlings do all the hard parts of his job. However, by underestimating that there is a strategy here and an objective, people of your mindset would surely mismanage Canada's interests.

No, tariffs have always been his pet project. The difference is in his first 4 years he actually had folks around him that were the buffers protecting America from his most outlandish ideas, today we have sycophants who are terrified of him and will do and say whatever he expects of them, even if it will destroy the economy and the country.

 

[danmand]

Try thinking about the questions I've posed instead of reflexively coming to the defence of the Trudeau government. There is more to this than the Liberals are crappy leaders in such circumstances.

This has nothing to do with liberals, sorry to disappoint you. Mulroney negotiated the first free trade agreement. I would be the last to defend the Liberals.

 

[Dutch Oven]

No, tariffs have always been his pet project. The difference is in his first 4 years he actually had folks around him that were the buffers protecting America from his most outlandish ideas, today we have sycophants who are terrified of him and will do and say whatever he expects of them, even if it will destroy the economy and the country.

There are a lot of people who lost their seats in government, their jobs, and/or their careers by underestimating Trump and his team.

 

[Dutch Oven]

This has nothing to do with liberals, sorry to disappoint you. Mulroney negotiated the first free trade agreement. I would be the last to defend the Liberals.

The questions are there for you to think about, if you're ever ready for that. Your post is completely beside the point.

 

[squeezer]

There are a lot of people who lost their seats in government, their jobs, and/or their careers by underestimating Trump and his team.

Do you notice nobody of his past 2016-2020 team is on board? Hmmmm, I wonder why.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Do you notice nobody of his past 2016-2020 team is on board? Hmmmm, I wonder why.

You seem fixated on irrelevant things. Are you just relying on women's intuition?

 

[benstt]

• Doug Ford just announced an export tax on energy sales to the US. Isn't it the exporter who pays an export tax? Isn't that us, the Ontario taxpayers?

Think, monkey, think. If the tax is not paid directly by the importer, the exporter would just add it to the price charged to the importer and the importer would have to pay it.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Think, monkey, think. If the tax is not paid directly by the importer, the exporter would just add it to the price charged to the importer and the importer would have to pay it.

It seems that I've done my thinking before you did. You are talking about a price hike, not an export tax. Ask yourself, if this really was an export tax, even if the price is passed on to the purchaser, what sense does it make for the Government of Ontario to collect a tax from itself? The province certainly doesn't pay any other provincial taxes to itself (like sales tax or property taxes), or didn't you know that?

 

[Butler1000]

The media is doing a marvelous job of repeating the same inane points and discussing the same old simple-minded strategies. Here are a few points to consider on the road to unravelling what's really going on here:

• Trump has been talking about Canada as the 51st state. He hasn't been talking about Mexico as the 52nd. What do you suppose that says about:
  • Which country he considers the better trading partner?
  • Which country has greater economic potential?
  • Which country is the real problem, both economically and otherwise?
• The US has a 52% share of all foreign investment in Canadian companies. Without doing the math, I think their percentage would only be higher amongst companies which export to the US. They only have a 40% share of foreign investment in Mexican companies, and their overall investment in Mexico is far smaller.
• If tariffs were the true objective, why weren't they imposed immediately?
• Doug Ford just announced an export tax on energy sales to the US. Isn't it the exporter who pays an export tax? Isn't that us, the Ontario taxpayers?
• What would be the job losses in Canada be if Canadian tariffs on American goods cause Canadian companies to downsize or relocate?
• Do you think that the US really wants Quebec, or our indigenous treaties, to manage themselves, or a vastly expanded electorate with liberal leanings?
• How many jobs ever relocated from the US to Canada? What about Mexico? How many jobs migrated from Canada to Mexico? Any vice versa?
• Why do you think Trump has been careful in explaining that there would be an initial period of adjustment but that things would be better for Americans at the end of the process - without ever saying that the endgame would be permanent tariffs?
• Does Canada already have tariffs and/or government subsidies in place to protect specific Canadian industries (such as eggs, milk, beef, wheat)?
• What does the Liberal party have to gain by botching a resolution of these issues, and thereby extending the "tariff war" up until the election?
• Why did Trump, in the context of speaking with Trudeau about these issues, ask him when the next election is going to be? What do the two have to do with one another?

I could go on, but I think the answers to these questions, never discussed in the mainstream media, offer some insight into the real agenda of this phoney trade war.

The fact you can't figure out charging a surcharge affects the buyer says it all here.

Right now we sell excess electricity production to the USA at a discount. Trump planned to add 10% to that. The USA govt collects it. Ontario is also going to add 25% which we bill to the USA power companies. They pay that to the Canadian ones who then give it to the Ontario govt.

The power companies then add 35% total to each watt of power consumed by USA customers. That is what is going to happen.

Yes we have restrictions on food imports. Why? Because the USA produces shitty food. Filled with hormones and chemicals we don't want in our supply. And to prevent big Agro corps from dominating things. And also as a national security issue we don't want foreigners controlling our food supplies.

Don't like it? Too bad. Fuck the USA.

 

[Butler1000]

Trump has some smart people around him. I think hardly any of his policies are of his own personal design. He's the kind of boss who demands his underlings do all the hard parts of his job. However, by underestimating that there is a strategy here and an objective, people of your mindset would surely mismanage Canada's interests.

His goal is chaos hoping he can move goalposts. We are prepared to dig in. Are USA consumers? What you haven't put into this calculus is Trump is used to being able to negotiate with various vendors, screw them over on one time deals, then move on another sucker.

That's not the way this works. We have a decades long supply chain built up the USA manufacturers and consumers rely on as a SOLE SOURCE. 1.5 million customers rely on Canadian power from Ontario, more from Quebec, and other in B.C. 10's of millions in the Midwest rely on Canadian crude. The infrastructure is built based on this. Go with USA sources and the price goes up even more in some cases

Auto industry relies on parts, some of which cross the border multiple times in the manufacturing process, each time adding the tariff on.

Alaska is about to get hit with a transport fee for any truck crossing B.C.

I can go on and on. How do you think Midwest Voters will react to 10 bucks a gallon?

 

[Dutch Oven]

The fact you can't figure out charging a surcharge affects the buyer says it all here.

Right now we sell excess electricity production to the USA at a discount. Trump planned to add 10% to that. The USA govt collects it. Ontario is also going to add 25% which we bill to the USA power companies. They pay that to the Canadian ones who then give it to the Ontario govt.

The power companies then add 35% total to each watt of power consumed by USA customers. That is what is going to happen.

Yes we have restrictions on food imports. Why? Because the USA produces shitty food. Filled with hormones and chemicals we don't want in our supply. And to prevent big Agro corps from dominating things. And also as a national security issue we don't want foreigners controlling our food supplies.

Don't like it? Too bad. Fuck the USA.

Nope. You're not getting the point here. It is NOT an export tax, as Ford describes it. So the real question is, why did he describe it that way?

As to whether Ontario can count on US purchasers swallowing an immediate increase in energy prices it's a dubious proposition because it begs the question - if the market was so elastic, why was it being sold at the prior lower price for so long? Common sense tells you that the price HAD to be that low to discourage these US customers from developing their own, or alternative, supply.

Emotion is getting the better of people on this issue.

As to barriers to US food producers, quality control restrictions are not the same, nor do they serve the same objectives as industry subsidies. My post posed a question about the specific industry subsidies we have in Canada to protect certain industries from competition.

 

[Dutch Oven]

His goal is chaos hoping he can move goalposts. We are prepared to dig in. Are USA consumers? What you haven't put into this calculus is Trump is used to being able to negotiate with various vendors, screw them over on one time deals, then move on another sucker.

That's not the way this works. We have a decades long supply chain built up the USA manufacturers and consumers rely on as a SOLE SOURCE. 1.5 million customers rely on Canadian power from Ontario, more from Quebec, and other in B.C. 10's of millions in the Midwest rely on Canadian crude. The infrastructure is built based on this. Go with USA sources and the price goes up even more in some cases

Auto industry relies on parts, some of which cross the border multiple times in the manufacturing process, each time adding the tariff on.

Alaska is about to get hit with a transport fee for any truck crossing B.C.

I can go on and on. How do you think Midwest Voters will react to 10 bucks a gallon?

In bargaining, you're always better served to deduce a rational objective for what the other side is doing, rather than throwing your hands up and assuming you are dealing with a madman.

 

[nottyboi]

The media is doing a marvelous job of repeating the same inane points and discussing the same old simple-minded strategies. Here are a few points to consider on the road to unravelling what's really going on here:

• Trump has been talking about Canada as the 51st state. He hasn't been talking about Mexico as the 52nd. What do you suppose that says about:
  • Which country he considers the better trading partner?
  • Which country has greater economic potential?
  • Which country is the real problem, both economically and otherwise?
• The US has a 52% share of all foreign investment in Canadian companies. Without doing the math, I think their percentage would only be higher amongst companies which export to the US. They only have a 40% share of foreign investment in Mexican companies, and their overall investment in Mexico is far smaller.
• If tariffs were the true objective, why weren't they imposed immediately?
• Doug Ford just announced an export tax on energy sales to the US. Isn't it the exporter who pays an export tax? Isn't that us, the Ontario taxpayers?
• What would be the job losses in Canada be if Canadian tariffs on American goods cause Canadian companies to downsize or relocate?
• Do you think that the US really wants Quebec, or our indigenous treaties, to manage themselves, or a vastly expanded electorate with liberal leanings?
• How many jobs ever relocated from the US to Canada? What about Mexico? How many jobs migrated from Canada to Mexico? Any vice versa?
• Why do you think Trump has been careful in explaining that there would be an initial period of adjustment but that things would be better for Americans at the end of the process - without ever saying that the endgame would be permanent tariffs?
• Does Canada already have tariffs and/or government subsidies in place to protect specific Canadian industries (such as eggs, milk, beef, wheat)?
• What does the Liberal party have to gain by botching a resolution of these issues, and thereby extending the "tariff war" up until the election?
• Why did Trump, in the context of speaking with Trudeau about these issues, ask him when the next election is going to be? What do the two have to do with one another?

I could go on, but I think the answers to these questions, never discussed in the mainstream media, offer some insight into the real agenda of this phoney trade war.

The export tax means the price of the electricity rises and the producer collects the tax. vs a tariff where the receiver pays the tax. If the seller wants to absorb the tax that's their choice, but unless there are very high spikes in demand the seller cannot do that. So I think they will just add 25% to the buying system and let the pricing models take over at X x 1.25.

Canada has tariffs and supply management on some industries yes. Its not uncommon for jobs to locate back and forth depending on business needs

In all honesty the Trade war has been a gift to the liberals. Nothing is better for an unpopular govt then an emergency where they can step up, wrap themselves in the flag and seen to be governing well. And this is what has happened. Even PP has not been able to challenge any decisions by the the govt and dare not criticize them.

 

[Dutch Oven]

The export tax means the price of the electricity rises and the producer collects the tax. vs a tariff where the receiver pays the tax. If the seller wants to absorb the tax that's their choice, but unless there are very high spikes in demand the seller cannot do that. So I think they will just add 25% to the buying system and let the pricing models take over at X x 1.25

They will try. Will it be sustainable, and if so, why hadn't they raised the price already? To be nice?

You're a lot closer than other posters in your description of export taxes, but bear in mind Canada/Ontario has no jurisdiction to demand taxes from foreign customers. Canada/Ontario would look to the Canadian exporter to remit the export tax.

I also question whether a province can lawfully regulate international trade. It's a federal head of authority under the Constitution to regulate trade and commerce. I think that means, at the very least, international trade.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Dutchie actually believes Trumputin has thought this through because he believes Trumputin is an intelligent man. LMFAO

Exactly.
He is into optics only.
There is no strategic thought.
But this is the tired old trick these MAGA cult members resort to.
Trump does something stupid and then they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to intellectualize and rationalize his actions to give it meaning.
But a quisling is a quisling at the end of the day.