The Bombing of Dresden (Photoes)

[Topol-M]

Shocking photoes of war:

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/ww2_the_bombing_of_dresden_Oct_27_2005.html


WW2 : The Bombing of Dresden
Night-Attack at 13.02.1945: 773 RAF-Bomber droped 2.659 tons of bombs at the german town "Dresden".
Day-Attack at 14.02.1945: 1350 USAF-Bomber droped 771 tons of bomb.
Number of victims: somwhere between 35.000 (unknown source), 253.000 (source: City of Dresden*) 275.000 (Red-Cross-Sources**) up to 400.000 (Source: J. Goebbels***). Nobody knows the real number of victims, because the town was filled with 600.000 unregistered refugees from east-germany.

Churchill´s Directives:
.
Directive no. 22 / 04.02.1942: "The efforts are to be concentrated on The
moral of the civilian population of the enemy."
.
Directive to Chief of air Staff / 05.02 1942: "I think it is clear that The
target are residential areas, not dockyards or airplane factories."

*= City of Dresden report: "35.000 identified, 50.000 not sure identified and 168.000 unidentified victims...."
.
**= Report of the Joint Relief Commission of the International Red Cross 1941-1946, Genf 1948, S. 104: "At Dresden, where 275 000 people were reported to have been killed during the bombing attack......."
.
***= The "Propaganda"-Ministry internal counts 350.000 - 400.000 victims. Official Goebbels just talk about 40.000 victims to "don´t demoralize the civil-population."

 

[MarkII]

I would also ask why the psot was created.

I don't see any purpose other than to show some rather gruesome pictures.

M2

 

[slowpoke]

This post seems unprovoked and unrelated to any of the other topics floating around over the last few days. But it IS worth posting because our side doesn't like to talk about how we intentionally murdered 100's of thousands of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I was in my late 20's before I finally read about the firebombing of Dresden in Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Slaughterhouse Five". Vonnegut was a prisoner of war in Dresden at the time of the firebombing so his eyewitness account of that event was a real eye opener. I am not surprised that this massacre is rarely mentioned. It is an uncomfortable topic but it is one of those lessons of history we should all be familiar with.

 

[papasmerf]

I am curious as to why you did not include the bombing of London or any nazi occupation, death camps or hitlers extermination of handicap people, in this post?

Hard to feel guilt 60 years later for action of the leaders of another time and place. Yet, you try to extrapolate guilt. Why?

 

[langeweile]

My stepmom had to live through it.
Even today when there is fireworks she plugs her ears and hides....I got some firsthand stories from her. She was around 12 or so when it happened.

I just hope this pics weren't posted for gruesome, voyeuristic entertainment purposes...yikes..

 

[BiggieE]

....as General Robert E. Lee is quoted as saying.....

"It is good that War is so terrible....lest we come to enjoy it too much"....

Unfortunately , the only way to win at this disgusting game, is to temporarily forget your human decency. I know many Veterans of Wars, and they are very opposed to War, not for political reasons, but because they have seen the results with their own eyes, and do not wish for others to see what they have....

 

[strange1]

I'd rather have been at Hiroshima than Dresden. The fact that people were litterally sucked into the fire by huge winds freaks me out.

 

[Topol-M]

I found out about: www.ogrish.com just a few days ago , it contains some photoes that usually dont go to public domain so I thought some of you might like it too...

also I noticed Churchill one of the biggest politicians of past century has directly ordered this bombardment ....
I personally dont think because what Nazi did we can do the same thing ( killing innocents) but the main point for me was how actions are relative .
To define an act as Good or Bad we need to look at its history and conditions....

 

[danmand]

In the newest book by/with Noam Chomsky, he talks about the firebombings ofDresden and Tokyo, the Tokyo firebombing being planned by Robert McNamara of later fame. Chomsky makes the (obvious) point that the victors of the war determined in Nuremberg what was war crimes or not. Obviously firebombings of civilian populations were deemed not to be a war crime.

One telling point is, that Admiral Doenits (of the german u-boat fleet) had to be let go, because he called as a witness an american submarine commander, who testified that the american submariners used the exact same tactics as the german submariners: ergo no warcrime.

 

[Asterix]

One telling point is, that Admiral Doenits (of the german u-boat fleet) had to be let go, because he called as a witness an american submarine commander, who testified that the american submariners used the exact same tactics as the german submariners: ergo no warcrime.

Not true. Doenitz was convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg, and spent ten years in prison, finally released in 1956. That his crimes were not deemed as heinous as others who were tried, and that many on the allied side were just as guilty, I grant you.

 

[assoholic]

..the Civilian bombing in WW2 had the exact opposite effect the Generals had planned out. In both England and Germany. I have read stories of American airman who owed their lives to German soldiers who protected them from civilians who wanted to string them up when they bailed out.
In both cases instead of softening up the population it hardened them.

 

[danmand]

Not true. Doenitz was convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg, and spent ten years in prison, finally released in 1956. That his crimes were not deemed as heinous as others who were tried, and that many on the allied side were just as guilty, I grant you.

Thanks for the correction. I meant let go in contrast to all the others, (except also Speer and Hess) who were hanged or took poison(Goering).

 

[mandrill]

The Allied bombing offensive is a black mark - probably the only real such - against the Allied High Command and Dresden is its low point. Definitely a War Crime, by any objective standard. And something Brits should be ashamed of to this day.

But it was a different time and place then and the British people were bitterly angry at what the Luftwaffe had done to them a couple of years before. My Mom for instance, was bombed by the Luftwaffe. She lived in a small town in England with no military importance and no air defences and it was probably bombed by mistake.

Even so, half the kids in her class were killed in the raid and my Mom's house was totally trashed. Eye for an eye.

If anyone is genuinely interested in this stuff, please read "Bomber" by Len Deighton, his first and in many ways best novel. It's a great read until near the end when it just gets a little too gory and it underlines the fact that no-one is really "right" in war.

 

[Asterix]

Thanks for the correction. I meant let go in contrast to all the others, (except also Speer and Hess) who were hanged or took poison(Goering).

What he produced at Nuremberg was a affidavit from US Admiral Nimitz, of all people, saying that his own forces had used many of the same tactics of unrestricted warfare. Many on the allied side in the Navy were dismayed by the verdict against Doenitz. Submarine commanders tend to stick together.

 

[danmand]

The Allied bombing offensive is a black mark - probably the only real such - against the Allied High Command and Dresden is its low point. Definitely a War Crime, by any objective standard. And something Brits should be ashamed of to this day.

It would appear that the fire bombing of Tokyo was even worse, primarily because the housing there was mostly constructed of wood. I found it interesting that it was Robert MacNamara who planned the firebombing.

 

[danmand]

What he produced at Nuremberg was a affidavit from US Admiral Nimitz, of all people, saying that his own forces had used many of the same tactics of unrestricted warfare. Many on the allied side in the Navy were dismayed by the verdict against Doenitz. Submarine commanders tend to stick together.

Thanks again for giving us the real facts.

 

[Ranger68]

....as General Robert E. Lee is quoted as saying.....

"It is good that War is so terrible....lest we come to enjoy it too much"....

Unfortunately , the only way to win at this disgusting game, is to temporarily forget your human decency. I know many Veterans of Wars, and they are very opposed to War, not for political reasons, but because they have seen the results with their own eyes, and do not wish for others to see what they have....

This is no defense, AT ALL, for Dresden, if it was meant as one.

 

[langeweile]

This is no defense, AT ALL, for Dresden, if it was meant as one.

I agree with this.
From my history lessons(in Germany) I was taught, that this attack was a retaliation for Dunkirk?

 

[Ranger68]

It wasn't a retaliation for any one specific event.
There were many in the Allied high command who wished to study the effects that this kind of bombing would produce in a city the likes of Dresden. And, since there was no love lost with the Nazis by that point in the war, there was little opposition.
It remains a disgraceful act of barbarism - one of the low points of civilization - like much of that war.

 

[slowpoke]

It wasn't a retaliation for any one specific event.
There were many in the Allied high command who wished to study the effects that this kind of bombing would produce in a city the likes of Dresden. And, since there was no love lost with the Nazis by that point in the war, there was little opposition.
It remains a disgraceful act of barbarism - one of the low points of civilization - like much of that war.

I agree that we are capable of the same level of barbarism as those so-called madmen and monsters we have historically opposed. Hiroshima and Nagasaki became instant historical landmarks because they were the first cities to be destroyed by nuclear weapons. Those atrocities were sanctioned because they ostensibly shortened the war and saved American lives. So there was at least an official justification for those bombings and many around the world seem to have accepted that this was an unfortunate but necessary act on the part of the US.

But Dresden and Tokyo (and My Lai) get almost no mention which is a pity because the widespread ignorance of these events allows many of us to cling to the notion that we are invariably the good guys, that our occasional atrocities are, almost by definition, "unfortunate but necessary" and that no democratically elected leader in the civilized western world could actually be a war criminal. History has shown us again and again that this just isn't the case but we are too busy congratulating ourselves on our moral superiority to pay any attention.