The Catholic Church is out of cash???

[trisket]

Yeah right.
Start selling some more assets then, weasels.
=====

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/01/10/abuse-money.html

Church out of cash to pay abuse victims: lawyer
More properties need to be sold to make next payment, diocese says
Last Updated: Thursday, January 10, 2008 | 7:24 AM NT
CBC News

More than three dozen Newfoundland and Labrador men who had been sexually abused by a priest will likely not be fully compensated, their lawyer says.

The Roman Catholic Diocese of St. George's had sold off many of its properties, including churches that were bought back by congregation members, to help settle a $14 million settlement over abuse committed by priest Kevin Bennett.

But Greg Stack, the St. John's lawyer representing most of the 40 claimants, said the diocese says it cannot pay any more, with only half of the settlement payments complete.

"They're acting very worldly for a spiritual organization," Stack told CBC News.

"They've transferred the title out to new corporations with the money they've raised. So instead of raising money to give to victims, they raised money to protect their own property."

Bennett was convicted in Newfoundland Supreme Court in 1990 and served four years in prison.

The compensation package took years to negotiate, and last year the diocese filed an appeal of the package.

Stack said that an installment in the compensation package that was due last summer has not yet been received, despite assurances.

"There is no firm indication that they'll ever be paid. It's looking more and more dubious as time goes on," he said.

Stack said if any compensation is ever paid again, he believes it will be small.

Stack said the men involved in the settlement, most of whom were abused by Bennett while he was posted to churches in southern Newfoundland, are disappointed by the latest turn of events.

"They had plans made," he said.

"They were finally putting behind them this torturous past, embarrassing past."

But Father Jim Robertson, who helped co-ordinate the settlement agreement, acknowledges that while there is currently no money to make payments, the church will do its best to pay out the rest of the compensation by the end of 2008.

"We're always optimistic that we'll be able to complete that and we work towards that. That's our whole reason for being, is to honour our agreements as best we can," Robertson told CBC News.

Robertson said several more church properties are expected to be sold soon, which could result in another $750,000 payment being made to victims by March.

Stack said he is not holding his breath over that payment being received by then.

The compensation agreement requires the diocese to make good on its commitments by Dec. 31.

Bennett was one of a series of Roman Catholic priests — and then lay Christian Brothers at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in St. John's — who were convicted in the 1980s and 1990s of sexual assaults.

The charges and trials — as well as a church-led inquiry and a royal commission into an aborted 1970s Mount Cashel police investigation — rocked the Roman Catholic church as well as the criminal justice and social services systems.

J.J. Byrne, who advocated for Mount Cashel survivors and is aware of the struggles to obtain compensation, said parishioners who have helped buy back properties should demand more from church leaders.

"I think it is incumbent on the parishioners to absolutely demand the diocese fulfill its obligation and pay the victims," Byrne said.

 

[onthebottom]

I'd love to see an audit of the Catholic Church - how do you mark-to-market the Sistine chapel?

OTB

 

[train]

Yeah right.

More than three dozen Newfoundland and Labrador men who had been sexually abused by a priest will likely not be fully compensated, their lawyer says.


But Greg Stack, the St. John's lawyer representing most of the 40 claimants, said the diocese says it cannot pay any more, with only half of the settlement payments complete.

"They're acting very worldly for a spiritual organization," Stack told CBC News.

"They've transferred the title out to new corporations with the money they've raised. So instead of raising money to give to victims, they raised money to protect their own property.".

Doesn't this just make you proud to be a Catholic ? Whatever happened to that slogan WWJD ?

 

[onthebottom]

Doesn't this just make you proud to be a Catholic ? Whatever happened to that slogan WWJD ?

I would love to see an audit.

OTB

 

[cypherpunk]

Just to be clear, a diocese's finances are not interchangeable with the Vatican's. Every once in a while you'll see something about an inner-city Catholic school being closed because of lack of funding because the funding comes from that community. As DonQuixote correctly says, there is no "Catholic Church".

 

[onthebottom]

An audit of what or who?

There is no entity owning land or other assets with
a corporate charter in the name 'Catholic Church'.

The assets are titled in the Bishop's name.

So there is no financial relationship between the Vatican and a local parish?

Who audits the local parish funds and cash flows. Are there governance rules over what a Bishop may or may not do with assets?

OTB

 

[red]

Portland Archbishop John Vlazny talks about sex-abuse victims' suffering and need for reconciliation. His archdiocese was the first in the nation to file for bankruptcy, citing the $53 million it had already paid out to victims of priest sex abuse.

The answers are rooted in history and based largely on practicality: While the Vatican seeks strict control over theology, liturgy and key personnel issues in its 3,000-plus dioceses worldwide, it has largely stayed out of their financial workings.

That's not to say Portland's Archbishop John Vlazny didn't consult with the Vatican before taking so drastic a measure last Tuesday, when he announced the archdiocese was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Vlazny did talk with Vatican officials, his spokesman said.

But whether the archbishop specifically asked for and received approval is unclear. Some experts say they doubt Vlazny would've taken such a step without Rome's permission. But Time magazine this week reports the Holy See was stunned by Vlazny's decision.

Vlazny announced he was filing for bankruptcy because the archdiocese had already paid out $53 million to settle 133 claims of sex abuse by priests, and seeking bankruptcy protection was the only way to make sure plaintiffs in pending lawsuits would receive any compensation.

Regardless of whether Vlazny had the Vatican's go-ahead, canon — or church — law has generally given bishops substantial autonomy.

History of autonomy

From the earliest days, when the apostles established churches in different communities, churches developed as independent entities.

Great importance was placed on the authority of local bishops, whom the church regards as being in a direct line from the apostles.

"The bishop is not simply the branch manager of a McDonald's," said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Jesuit and editor of America, a national Catholic weekly magazine. "He is the vicar of Christ for the diocese and his people."

In the Middle Ages, local churches enjoyed considerable financial independence from the Vatican, as many were founded with property and assets belonging to wealthy local landowners. Those landowners and other secular leaders — and not the pope — were often in control of those properties and assets.

Moreover, "If you're in London and the pope's in Rome, it would take six months to send him a letter, let alone work out financial things," Reese said.

Other practical realities have since come into play.

As the church spread around the world, dioceses often adhered to different local laws and accounting standards.

For the Vatican to devise a centralized system "would be just impossible from a practical point of view," said the Rev. Patrick Howell, a Jesuit and dean of Seattle University's School of Theology and Ministry.

Financial autonomy also allowed for greater protection against legal liability.

If dioceses were tied to the Vatican financially, "any one diocese could act irresponsibly knowing the Vatican could bail them out," said Charles Zech, an economics professor at Villanova University. "Knowing that, the Vatican tried to keep their finances totally separate."

Church members probably also wouldn't want to see "a guy hit by a priest in South Africa, or a sexual-abuse victim in the United States ... trying to get the church to sell a famous piece of art" — something that could happen if all church assets were centralized, said Fred Naffziger, professor of business law at Indiana University, South Bend.

Also, he said, "you don't want the assets of one diocese sucked off to pay for another diocese."

Moreover, Naffziger believes that keeping the Vatican out of local finances helps fund-raising efforts at the parish level.

"If my parish asked me for money, I'm probably more inclined to give it if I know my parish will have that money to expend for its schools, pay for its employees," he said.

"I'm probably less likely to give money if it's going to be divided up among 10 other parishes."

Reese, the America magazine editor, says another reason finances are kept separate is because bishops wouldn't want their money controlled by the Vatican, which hasn't managed its own funds very well.

Last week, it reported a deficit for the third straight year — about $11.8 million — after also losing money throughout the 1970s and '80s.

Though reportedly cash poor, the Vatican does have considerable assets. But experts note that some would be difficult to liquidate.

If the Vatican decided to sell off a piece of art, for instance, "the Italians would be up in arms," Reese said. "They believe it's part of their national heritage."

Moreover, he said, some valuable assets, such as St. Peter's Basilica, are very expensive to maintain.

It's this very distance between the Vatican's finances and those at the local level that some experts say has allowed the Catholic Church to survive for so long.

"Even when Rome would get sacked and Napoleon would arrest the pope, the rest of the church says, 'Oh, well,' and keeps going," Reese said.

Financial links

At the local level, the financial independence means each diocese and parish must survive on its own.

"Somehow people think the Vatican sends money to the dioceses, when it's the exact opposite," said Greg Magnoni, Seattle Archdiocese spokesman. "Dioceses around the world do collections for the Vatican."

The Vatican collects money from parishioners in two ways. One is the annual Peter's Pence collection, which supports the pope's charitable causes. The other is an annual assessment of individual dioceses — an amount Seattle church officials say is small.

The relationship between a diocese and its parishes is similar. Parishes must be able to operate on their own, while also providing some money for the operation of the diocese.

The Seattle Archdiocese, for instance, derives its income through three main sources: the bishop's Annual Appeal, supported by parishioners; investment income; and an assessment of each parish that amounts to about 5 or 6 percent of its collection-plate income.

One of the stickiest questions in the Portland bankruptcy revolves around just how financially independent parishes legally are from the diocese.

Under church law, parish assets and property belong to the parish, not the diocese. That argument may not hold up in bankruptcy court unless a parish is incorporated independently under civil law.

In the Seattle Archdiocese, only one parish — Blessed Sacrament, which by contract belongs to the Dominican order — is independently incorporated.

What church law says

While the Vatican generally stays out of its bishops' finances, it has always had an overriding interest in safeguarding valuable church buildings, land and other assets, down to the local level.

For example, one reason mandatory celibacy for priests was instituted about 1,000 years ago was the worry that church property was being passed down to children of priests, rather than staying in the church.

Now, canon law dictates that sales of sizable church assets require Vatican approval. In the U.S., that means Rome's permission is needed for sales above $5 million in dioceses with fewer than 500,000 Catholics, and $10 million in bigger dioceses.

But canon law does not speak to the issue of bankruptcy by a diocese.

Bud Bunce, spokesman for the Portland Archdiocese, said the exchange between Vlazny and Vatican officials before the archbishop filed for bankruptcy is privileged.

The Time magazine article said this week a senior Vatican official was convinced that Vlazny was bluffing about filing for bankruptcy until a wire-service story was read to the official. The magazine also said that two years ago, Cardinal Bernard Law was denied permission to do the same thing when he was the archbishop of Boston.

But some experts believe Vlazny received the go-ahead. They see that not as the Vatican telling a bishop what to do, but rather as an example of Rome's trust in its bishops to make financial calls for their dioceses.

Naffziger, the Indiana University, South Bend professor, said: "The Vatican probably thinks: 'Well, if a bishop thinks this is the last, desperate move, we're going to allow it.' "

Janet I. Tu: 206-464-2272 or jtu@seattletimes.com

 

[trisket]

Sounds like the Church works from the top down when it suits them for making rules, from the bottom up when trying to evade responsibility.

Weasels.

 

[cypherpunk]

Who audits the local parish funds and cash flows. Are there governance rules over what a Bishop may or may not do with assets?

In most churches what you'll find is a volunteer, probably a housewife or retiree, overseeing the books and a CPA with ties to the church doing all of the official stuff. I imagine that bishops can do pretty much as they please, though they're easily replaced if they step too far out of line. A few years ago there was some sort of embezzlement charge at the Catholic church where I grew up and apparently it was resolved by the priest going into early retirement.

 

[onthebottom]

Sounds like the structure of another financially focus Italian organization.....

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

The other is a spinoff organization.

Actually, they follow the Greco-Roman model.

Never doubt ancient wisdom.

If you've been around for 2 millenium you
must be doing something right.

Almost as old as the profession that inspired this board.

OTB

 

[Aardvark154]

This is all very sad. Sad not only for the victims of Clergy sexual abuse, but also sad for the many faithful members of the Roman Catholic Church whose giving, not infrequently from the relatively little they had, now has to be diverted from the uses for which they intended it, and the good it might have done.

This is not really the place to discuss the foolishness, and mistaken theology, to my mind, of Clerical celibacy. Which indirectly lead to the ordination of unsuitable candidates for the Priesthood. But what a horrible, horrible mess!

 

[onthebottom]

This is all very sad. Sad not only for the victims of Clergy sexual abuse, but also sad for the many faithful members of the Roman Catholic Church whose giving, not infrequently from the relatively little they had, now has to be diverted from the uses for which they intended it, and the good it might have done.

This is not really the place to discuss the foolishness, and mistaken theology, to my mind, of Clerical celibacy. Which indirectly lead to the ordination of unsuitable candidates for the Priesthood. But what a horrible, horrible mess!

In the words of Robin Williams, it's not just a sin, it's a felony.....

Too few priests were given the opportunity to repay their debt to society.

OTB

 

[danmand]

Too often, the Catholic Church takes this kind of rap on a problem that is used to denigrate the theology and is far more rampant in other organisations. This child abuse problem is rampant on all levels, in all organisations throughout the US. Need I remind you of that loony tune that took credit for the Jon Benoit murder was a teacher that was bounced from school board to school board and even went into business himself. In every case this loony tune had questions raised, yet no one forwarded those concerns on any job reference he requested.

The US has an epidemic of child abuse issues with one of the highest number of convicted pedophiles in the world and the largest number missing children.

Look I don't condone the actions of a few priests within the Church, or actions that avoided responsibility, however most Priests are honourable men who are very committed to their calling. I'm just sick and tired of all the BS comments about priests and/or the Church as a whole when I could easily point to a number of cases involving US teachers that are accused yearly of inappropriate behaviour with children and school boards that have passed this problem on to other school boards through inaction.

I think you need to back your assertions with numbers.

 

[WoodPeckr]

In the words of Robin Williams, it's not just a sin, it's a felony.....

Too few priests were given the opportunity to repay their debt to society.

OTB

The Church is making progress in this regards.
The last time I was at a Mass there were NO altar boys attending the priest.
All the altar boys were replaced with altar girls!....

 

[danmand]

The Church is making progress in this regards.
The last time I was at a Mass there were NO altar boys attending the priest.
All the altar boys were replaced with altar girls!....

And that is progress because??

 

[WoodPeckr]

And that is progress because??

LOL!
That was my point!....

 

[Aardvark154]

And that is progress because??

Certainly it is irrelevant as to the issues of clergy sexual abuse and pedophilia. As to the issue of the inclusion of women in the liturgical functions of the Church (Capital C - across all denominations) most people seem to feel it's progress.

 

[danmand]

Certainly it is irrelevant as to the issues of clergy sexual abuse and pedophilia. As to the issue of the inclusion of women in the liturgical functions of the Church (Capital C - across all denominations) most people seem to feel it's progress.

You are a man of modest dreams and aspirations, if you see the inclusion of
altergirls as progress for women in the catholic church. (small c)

 

[FOOTSNIFFER]

Sounds like the structure of another financially focus Italian organization.....

OTB

Oh and most anglo saxon organisations don't run on the principle 'shit rolls downhill'? When a CEO earns 40 million, isn't he exacting 'tribute' from his underlings, the people who actually created that wealth? And when things go wrong, aren't the people at the bottom the first to suffer the consequences, with the people in the middle ranks the second?