The "Insanity" Excuse

[Rockslinger]

Do you think there too many people are getting away with murder by using the "insanity" excuse? If someone cuts off your head or the head of a loved one, do you really care if the killer is "insane", drunk, was abused as a child, declined BBBJ by his wife, etc., etc.? Shouldn't we all be held accountable for our actions?

BTW: The U.S. has the death penalty as a negotiating tool:thumb:. Apparently, the mass murderer James Holmes is sane enough to plea bargain guilty in exchange for the authorities taking the death penalty off the table.

 

[larry]

to me, this is the same as a drunk or high-on-drugs guy doing something wrong. mentally, they weren't there. no kidding. but bu law we've stated that drunks are responsible. and again by law, we've stated that mental people are not. it's a difficult issue.

 

[DELETDrileydaniels]

Do you really understand mental health and someone true mental state of mind. this is not being drunk or taking some street drug.

 

[RandyAndy2]

to me, this is the same as a drunk or high-on-drugs guy doing something wrong. mentally, they weren't there. no kidding. but bu law we've stated that drunks are responsible. and again by law, we've stated that mental people are not. it's a difficult issue.

It seems to me that people choose to drink or take drugs. They don't choose to have a serious mental issue.

 

[nobody123]

to me, this is the same as a drunk or high-on-drugs guy doing something wrong. mentally, they weren't there. no kidding. but bu law we've stated that drunks are responsible. and again by law, we've stated that mental people are not. it's a difficult issue.

Not really. The drunk/stoned person chooses to get stoned or drunk, and therefore has made an informed decision to accept the consequences of whatever they do. Someone who is mentally ill, on the other hand, doesn't CHOOSE to be mentally ill. It makes all the difference in the world.


edit: dammit! I typed slowly and got beaten to the punch!

 

[mrsCALoki]

to me, this is the same as a drunk or high-on-drugs guy doing something wrong. mentally, they weren't there. no kidding. but bu law we've stated that drunks are responsible. and again by law, we've stated that mental people are not. it's a difficult issue.

That is a wee bit over simplistic.

A guy who drinks and drives made a decision that he did not value human life enough to not drink and drive. His choice.

A mentally Ill person has no sane decision process leading to action. It is like saying you have pneumonia. It is your fault.

On the flip side as more and more problem cases are released, the risk to society goes up and up.

I was aware of a case not that long ago. The court heard "He was legally insane when he did it, but he is back on his meds now and is sane and would never do it now". Crown asked "if he goes off his meds again will he be a risk to society?" and then asked "Can you guarantee he will not go off his meds again?"


WAY to complicated a legal mess for me.

 

[mrsCALoki]

Not really. The drunk/stoned person chooses to get stoned or drunk, and therefore has made an informed decision to accept the consequences of whatever they do. Someone who is mentally ill, on the other hand, doesn't CHOOSE to be mentally ill. It makes all the difference in the world.


edit: dammit! I typed slowly and got beaten to the punch!

Devil's advocate: When a mentally ill person who is legally sane because they are taking medication CHOOSES to stop taking the medication..... is that different from the drinker? (Just a question, I do not know the answer)

 

[nobody123]

Devil's advocate: When a mentally ill person who is legally sane because they are taking medication CHOOSES to stop taking the medication..... is that different from the drinker? (Just a question, I do not know the answer)

Something I was thinking of when I posted that earlier response. It is a tough question, because you have to attempt the impossible - separate how much the mental illness payed a part in the decision not to take the meds. Or course, you could just leap to being an oversimplifying asshole and say "hurr durrr, it's a cop out plea! I can't believe they get away with it, hurr durrr!"

 

[LKD]

i've been reading about the human brain lately and contrary to what I've always believed (and i'd think many believe too), the mind and brain are two different things. The brain could make you do things you had no intention for (eg: when behaviours become habits or addictions, people tend to have no control and are unaware they're doing it sometimes).. So it is quite possible that someone had no intention to committ a crime and was insane, but the brain took hold of the body to committ the crime

 

[Aardvark154]

I leave it for the LSUC members to point out the error of my ways, but regarding Mr. Kachkar, from what I've read of the case in the press, under the current U.S. (federal) rules of Criminal Procedure http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-III/chapter-313 I believe he would have been convicted.

I find it difficult to understand how using a M'Naghten type standard it could be found that he didn't know that what he was doing was wrong.

 

[CapitalGuy]

So leave them without a criminal record and spare them jail time. But keep them in a mental health facility for a time equal to the prison sentence they would have served, "just to make sure" they are really cured of the mental health issue that sprung up when they killed, but went away again as soon as they got caught. I'm not in synch with larry, but I know the point he's trying to make, even if his "drunk" analogy is wrong.

 

[Aardvark154]

Devil's advocate: When a mentally ill person who is legally sane because they are taking medication CHOOSES to stop taking the medication..... is that different from the drinker? (Just a question, I do not know the answer)

In the "real world," that is almost always a post arrest situation. For purposes of "competent to assist with your own defense" in the United States see U.S. v. Sell, 539 U.S. 166, 169-70 (2003)

 

[larry]

usually, a mental guy doesn't choose to be mental. ok. but most drunk drivers didn't go out for lunch planning to get loaded, drive home and possibly have an accident. socially, we have passed laws that they ARE responsible. this is more of a legal viewpoint than a factual statement. i suggest that the situation is complicated. and when someone gets injured or killed, we want revenge. if this guy is really nuts, then the law says he's not responsible. let's pretend it was low blood sugar. maybe he's ok today!

 

[Rockslinger]

So ...are you trying to talk about that Kachkar trial? That guy is pretty insane.

That is one case but I can easily think of 3 others. Richard Li who cut off the head of a fellow bus passenger. Guy in B.C. who murdered his kids. Guy in Quebec who murdered his kids.

This will sound awful and offend the loony liberal lefties, but if insane people are not held legally accountable for their actions could they at least carry a warniong sign saying "not legally responsible if I hurt or kill you"? That way we are forewarned and can take evasive action.

 

[rld]

Do you think there too many people are getting away with murder by using the "insanity" excuse? If someone cuts off your head or the head of a loved one, do you really care if the killer is "insane", drunk, was abused as a child, declined BBBJ by his wife, etc., etc.? Shouldn't we all be held accountable for our actions?

BTW: The U.S. has the death penalty as a negotiating tool:thumb:. Apparently, the mass murderer James Holmes is sane enough to plea bargain guilty in exchange for the authorities taking the death penalty off the table.

If you want us to answer if "too many" people are getting away with "murder" via the insanity defense (not excuse, excuse is a different concept entirely), why don't you tell us how many people are doing that?

What % of cases run an insanity defense?

What % of insanity defenses are successful?

But that might actually take some thought or work...

 

[Rockslinger]

usually, a mental guy doesn't choose to be mental. ok. but most drunk drivers didn't go out for lunch planning to get loaded, drive home and possibly have an accident. socially, we have passed laws that they ARE responsible!

There are loony liberal lefties who will argue that alcohol addiction is an illness (like mental illness). They will argue that drunks are sick and didn't choose to be sick.

 

[rld]

That is one case but I can easily think of 3 others. Richard Li who cut off the head of a fellow bus passenger. Guy in B.C. who murdered his kids. Guy in Quebec who murdered his kids.

This will sound awful and offend the loony liberal lefties, but if insane people are not held legally accountable for their actions could they at least carry a warniong sign saying "not legally responsible if I hurt or kill you"? That way we are forewarned and can take evasive action.

Perhaps if you want to discuss an issue you might choose to learn the basics of it. People who have a successful insanity defense in Canada are remanded to high security mental institutions indefinately. Perhaps you would like Vince Li to wear that sign around the mental institution where he will be spending the rest of his life.

I have friends that do the hearings for those folks and they almost never get let out. In Ontario many criminal lawyers will advise their clients against an insanity plea because of the length of time they will likely be incarcerated.

 

[rld]

There are loony liberal lefties who will argue that alcohol addiction is an illness (like mental illness). They will argue that drunks are sick and didn't choose to be sick.

Really, which court case was that in? Or did you have to make it up? Was is successfully argued? Under what criminal code section could one argue that?

And what does left and right have to do with it? Defense lawyers try to find way to assist their clients. That is their duty, it is not a political approach.

 

[Rockslinger]

Perhaps if you want to discuss an issue you might choose to learn the basics of it. People who have a successful insanity defense in Canada are remanded to high security mental institutions indefinately. Perhaps you would like Vince Li to wear that sign around the mental institution where he will be spending the rest of his life.

I have friends that do the hearings for those folks and they almost never get let out. In Ontario many criminal lawyers will advise their clients against an insanity plea because of the length of time they will likely be incarcerated.

Vince Li is out on day parole and Dr. Turcotte was seen in a store by the sister of the mother of those kids he murdered.

 

[Rockslinger]

Really, which court case was that in.

Did not say it was argued in court. So, are you saying that alcohol addiction is not an illness?

EDIT: Apparently, the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) considers alcohol addiction to be a disease.