UFC 135: Jones vs. Rampage

[GG2]

Okay here's my opinion (and asshole lol) on Jon Bones Jones

Jones is a very skilled and a dynamic fighter but I just don’t see the elite level striker that everybody and their uncle praise him for.
I think he's good but he doesn’t have the accuracy % of an Anderson Silva or the footwork or the power. I think his kicks are more for show and kinda sloppy, his hands imo are just okay. I don't think his punching and kicking technique's are that good. His strength is clearly on the ground where he is an amazing wrestler and BJJ fighter. What keeps him from getting in trouble is that freakish long reach he has on everybody on the planet.
I don’t want to knock the guy but I just don’t agree with making him a mma God so early. Let the guy develop before making him the king. Remember what happened with LeBron James?
Plus I don’t like his cocky attitude and him trying to be perfect and say the "right things", seems fake imo. I think a long time ago Dana told Bones that he has the potential to be the MJ of mma so now he tries to say all the right things which to me is fake. It seems like he's trying to convince us too much that he's a great guy.

A few things I do praise him for is he tries to finish you off and he is exciting to watch. With his great wrestling ability he could easily hold opponents down and lay on them for 5rd's ala GsafePierre but he doesn’t, he actually tries to finish them. At least Bones has a true warrior spirit and tries to use all his tools to end fights. He is a good champion and I would pay to see him fight but I'm not gunna dub him God just yet. A good matchup would be him and Lyoto. Machida is also versatile and hits from odd angles and I would like to see how Bones handles that.

I don't think Jones has one-shot knockout power in his striking but his striking is good and accurate. It looks awkard because he's so tall. It's like watching a big man in a dunking competition, it's not very pretty. He probably loses power due to his height and lean build since extending his arm from position A to B is going to take more effort than somebody with shorter arms. Ditto for his kicking.

But he is strong and quick. We can talk about his height and reach advantage but that could have been a weakness for him if he wasn't strong and lacked the skill to keep his opponents from coming inside.

I don't find him cocky at all. I think he's a good guy, has his heart in the right place, he speaks well, and is a proper ambassador for the sport.

I can't think of any names of fighters currently in MMA in his division that pose any serious challenge for him.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

I've been saying for at least two years that MMA hasn't seen real talent and that an American version of Silva will rise from some corner of America and fight in the [light] heavyweight division as a champion. He's been found and his name is Jones. Keep an eye out for the heavyweight version if the sport continues to grow and compensates fighters with big payouts.

They have one - his name is Cain Velasquez. His all-around striking is improving by leaps and bounds. His cardio is unreal.

Will there be an even better version? Sure, someday. Cain is "only" about 240lbs - and so long as heavyweight's upper limit stays at 265, there is room for some freak of nature who's trained in MMA since an early age.

Jones would have schooled Liddell even easier than he manhandled Rampage. Much like Rampage, Liddell likes to go toe to toe as a striker. Much like Rampage, he'd be at a reach disadvantage and wouldn't be able to get close enough to Jones to hit him. Rampage defeated Liddell twice, and Jones made Rampage look like a schoolgirl. Shogun massacred Rampage and Jones made Shogun look like a rookie. Couture and Liddell are on par so Jones would have easily destroyed him too.

While we'll never know definitively, I disagree.

I think styles make fights and 'Page just happened to have Chuck's number. Also, Liddell's ego got in the way too much and he liked to stand in the pocket. While it made him popular among the fans, it also cost him on occasion (like with 'Page) and in the long run. And like Q. Jackson, he also partied too much between fights, which shortened his career.

Liddell had heavier hands and was a better wrestler, all-around striker and BBJ practioner than Jackson. Just my opinion.

I still think Jon Jones would beat either fairly handily, but I think a prime Chuck <rimshot> would fare better than a prime Rampage. He might win 2 out of 10 as opposed to 1 out of 10 for 'Page.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

I don't think Jones has one-shot knockout power in his striking but his striking is good and accurate. It looks awkard because he's so tall. It's like watching a big man in a dunking competition, it's not very pretty. He probably loses power due to his height and lean build since extending his arm from position A to B is going to take more effort than somebody with shorter arms. Ditto for his kicking.

But he is strong and quick. We can talk about his height and reach advantage but that could have been a weakness for him if he wasn't strong and lacked the skill to keep his opponents from coming inside.

I don't find him cocky at all. I think he's a good guy, has his heart in the right place, he speaks well, and is a proper ambassador for the sport.

I can't think of any names of fighters currently in MMA in his division that pose any serious challenge for him.

I think Jones' KO power will come as he learns better technique and leverage for his frame. Remember, he's still a relative neophyte at MMA - he only started any type of serious MMA cross-training a few months before his debut in 2008. Before that he was a pure wrestler/brawler.

I also don't get the cocky/arrogant/phony claims that others make about him. He's confident - and rightfully so - yet still respectful to his opponents, the sport and the fans. While at the same time, he's trying to figure out "his style" and learn how to interact with the media on the fly. And at 24, he's doing a pretty good job of it - you can tell he was raised right and has a good heart/instincts. I also think he is doing a bit of the GSP/Michael Jordan thing because it's better to go that route and make millions (esp. in endorsements) than be a loose cannon and make thousands. Good for him.

 

[GG2]

While we'll never know definitively, I disagree.

I think styles make fights and 'Page just happened to have Chuck's number. Also, Liddell's ego got in the way too much and he liked to stand in the pocket. While it made him popular among the fans, it also cost him on occasion (like with 'Page) and in the long run. And like Q. Jackson, he also partied too much between fights, which shortened his career.

Liddell had heavier hands and was a better wrestler, all-around striker and BBJ practioner than Jackson. Just my opinion.

I still think Jon Jones would beat either fairly handily, but I think a prime Chuck <rimshot> would fare better than a prime Rampage. He might win 2 out of 10 as opposed to 1 out of 10 for 'Page.

I don't think Liddell's hands are heavier than Rampage's but Liddell is a more accurate striker and he utilizes kicks which is something Rampage has almost never done. Both are classic oldschool American style MMA fighters - no creativity.

Shogun is a superior fighter to both Liddell and Rampage and fights with that Brazilian style edge. He's just as tough as Rampage, but stronger, and faster. His hands are just as heavy as Liddell, but even more accurate. Shogun destroyed both fighters with little effort.

Liddell would fare much worse than Shogun did in a fight against Jones.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Liddell would fare much worse than Shogun did in a fight against Jones.

That's your opinion. I disagree because of Chuck's one-punch KO power. I still think Jones would handle both rather easily. All is good.

I don't think Liddell's hands are heavier than Rampage's but Liddell is a more accurate striker and he utilizes kicks which is something Rampage has almost never done. Both are classic oldschool American style MMA fighters - no creativity.

Liddell had WAY more one-punch knockout power - that was my point and that's why Chuck was more dangerous. Both were very skilled and athletic but lazy between bouts. Neither actively took the time to expand on their skillsets. Those flaws hurt both in the long run.

Shogun is a superior fighter to both Liddell and Rampage and fights with that Brazilian style edge. He's just as tough as Rampage, but stronger, and faster. His hands are just as heavy as Liddell, but even more accurate. Shogun destroyed both fighters with little effort.

Shogun destroyed a shot Chuck; he did not fight even a near-prime Chuck. Shogun's hands were nowhere near as heavy as Chuck's - that's just asinine. Chuck's one-punch KO power was awesome. Was Shogun or Chuck a better fighter in his prime? Depends on the rules (UFC, Pride or the early days of virtually no rules), cage v. ring, etc. This would have been THE all-time LHW superfight to see, NOT prime Wanderlai v. Chuck. Shogun rushing forward with dynamic strikes and Chuck's awesome counter-punching power.

Prime Chuck Liddell vs. Prime Mauricio "Shogun" Rua:

Wrestling: edge Chuck
BJJ: edge Shogun
Overall grappling: even
Hands: Chuck
Kicks: Shogun
Overall striking: Shogun
Strength: even
Speed: Shogun
Stamina: Shogun (slight)
Chin: Chuck (slight)
Intangibles: Chuck (very slight; more big-fight experience)

 

[GG2]

Shogun, Rampage, and Wanderlei Silva in their prime, were all better fighters than Liddell.

Rampage beat Liddel TWICE, the first time during the same era that Shogun destroyed Rampage in Pride. So it wasn't that Rampage got lucky the first time and Chuck's cards were up. Rampage was a better fighter even if Chuck has heavier hands. Likewise Silva defeated Rampage TWICE. Silva's best days were behind him when he faced Liddell and Liddell still couldn't put him away with a knockout. Liddell's claim to fame and status comes from defeating Ortiz (a mediocre if shitty fighter) and Couture (a mixed bag), who are among the first stars of the sport.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

So by your logic, therefore Forrest Griffin is better than Shogun and Rampage. He beat them both and dominated Shogun in their first "legitimate" fight. (I can even get creative and say he only lost the second in Brazil because his wife went into labour.) And since Keith Jardine KO'd Griffin, he's the best of them all?

My point: it's not always as simple as wins and losses.

Listen, I know what you're saying and I've always felt Pride was awesome, but I look at the quality of opponents - and more importantly, WHEN the guys fought them relative to their prime - and just see Chuck dominating or knocking out more of the best of his era.

Shogun beat a shot Chuck, so that victory means very little when talking about the best of both men. I just think Chuck had a little more power and imposed his will on his (higher-quality) opponents. Shogun was phenomenal as well, but just didn't fight the number of top guys in their primes that Chuck did. I think Shogun and his dynamic striking and solid BJJ could and would win more than his share vs. Chuck, but I believe in their primes, Chuck's one-punch KO power and ability to dictate where the fight was fought would give him a could of extra wins. (Using the "Deadliest Warrior" scorecard - 100 fights: 55 Liddell, 45 Rua.)

Rampage doesn't even enter the equation when discussing the best LHW of all time, but he also had Chuck's number. Ken Norton had Muhammed Ali's number as well; he's still not considered one of the best boxers of all time. 'Page was dominated by the Chute Box guys while in his prime. If he had actually worked at his craft, he would have been a top-5 LHW (probably top 2 or 3.) As it is, he's still an all-timer, just not the best of the best. Reminds me of Shaq or Barkley - you always felt there was more if they had tried harder. Talent's funny that way - it makes you see someone differently than what they are.

Wanderlai was dominant, but also fought a lot of Japanese tomato cans and/or guys naturally smaller than him, so it's hard to say how he would do vs. a prime Chuck. They were both done as top fighters when they finally fought. I think his short arms and winging punches made him susceptible to Chuck's (or Shogun's) offence.

All-time light heavyweights:

1. Jon Jones (if he continues on this trajectory)
2. Chuck Liddell
3. Mauricio Rua
4. Wanderlai Silva
5. Randy Couture