US and Britain declared themselves to be the "occupying powers" in Iraq...

[*d*]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=404877
It was expected I guess. Both the US and Britain are taking the next step in the control of Iraqi oil.

d

 

[Cardinal Fang]

He's Back...........

 

[submissivedave]

Thank you so much *d* for posting that. I read a similar story on the BBC but I did not post it simply because I am going to be bashed if I said that the US were in fact, "colonizing" Iraq ...

 

[Alien (<>..<>)]

That's nothing, what about the incredible stupidity of nominating GW Bush and Tony Blair as candidates for the Nobel Peace Prize? Now THAT'S funny.

 

[Wired For Sound]

Thank you so much *d* for posting that. I read a similar story on the BBC but I did not post it simply because I am going to be bashed if I said that the US were in fact, "colonizing" Iraq ...

I don't think Amierca and Britian will be "colonizing" Iraq. It will be a very short term occupation. That may possibly be unfortunate for those living there. If anything colonialism could be argued to be be wrong because it's a sacrifice of the American Taxpayers money on Iraq. If anything I think, considering the alternative, they would be better off. As normal, *d* and SD have it totally wrong. The author of THE END OF RACISM, Dinish D'Souza has said, America is the most magnanimous nation in history. I agree. That's not to say the U.S. Government hasn't done wrong in the past, and will in the future. But by comparison you've got to see a difference.

As for Western colonialism in the past, those who were colonized faired far better as a result of it. Of course, some injustices did take place which were wrong.

Two Cheers for Colonialism
By DINESH D'SOUZA
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i35/35b00701.htm

 

[Liminal]

Think for yourself Wired

If you did, you would not indulge in these adolescent rationalizations. They are insipid.

And by the way, you forgot to tell everyone that the person whose book/opinion you chose to hide behind is also the author of "What's So Great About America", a book described on his own website as "the powerful story of D'Souza's own enchantment with the America".

Can you at least make an attempt to look credible?

 

[submissivedave]

As normal, *d* and SD have it totally wrong.

As for Western colonialism in the past, those who were colonized faired far better as a result of it. Of course, some injustices did take place which were wrong.

Two Cheers for Colonialism
By DINESH D'SOUZA
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i35/35b00701.htm

Hmmmmm ..... I wonder why you say that *d* and I are wrong and what you justify that upon. Who are you to say that your views are right and other's are wrong? Are you God? And what if God did not exist? One thing I don't like is when people claim others to be wrong to make themselves "look right" ... Similarily, I have never said my views and the points I have raised are "right" and that others are "wrong" ...

And as for colonialism, well, I am a big supporter of cultural exchange and I am very delighted to learn from Western culture simply because I will not claim that my Asiatic culture is "right" and that "the West" is wrong. There are things "right" and "admirable" about the West as there are from the East. Now, you can say how superior and how great the West is ... okay ... but if you keep yourself ignorant of other cultures or other ways of thinking, in the long run ... it is you who would be in a disadvantage position. Remember what Heidegger once said? Let me remind you ... he said "The future of the West is in the East." Why? Because he was referring to Oriental philosophy, specifically Zen.

Now, with someone of Oriental background who has been Western educated, I must say that I am blessed with such a situation because I can take the good things I have learn from the West and substitute it with the bad things of the East.

Confucius once said "Of two people walking in front of me, at least one of them qualifies to be my teacher. I shall learn his good points while getting rid of my bad points ..."

Now, if you are saying that colonialism has done more good then harm, then please consider situations such as slavery, exploitation of other people's natural resources, cruelty, forced into being Christians, etc etc. the list goes on ...

Hmmmm ..... why don't you have a look at fromer Belgium Congo and tell me if colonialism did more good then harm ...

 

[Wired For Sound]

I'm still waiting for you to re-invent the Wheel! How is that going?

If you did, you would not indulge in these adolescent rationalizations. They are insipid.

And by the way, you forgot to tell everyone that the person whose book/opinion you chose to hide behind is also the author of "What's So Great About America", a book described on his own website as "the powerful story of D'Souza's own enchantment with the America".

Can you at least make an attempt to look credible?

I never attempted to hide. I mentioned one of his books. What should I have doned listed every book and article he has ever wrote?

You call my response adolescent rationalizations. How? Insipid? In what way? Why do you try and communicate at all? After all, by your logic, communication would be a form of theft because it wasn't discovered by you. I think you're a sad and pathetic person, Liminal, and I mean it. Until you invent something orginal, Fuck off.

 

[Wired For Sound]

Hmmmmm ..... I wonder why you say that *d* and I are wrong and what you justify that upon. Who are you to say that your views are right and other's are wrong? Are you God? And what if God did not exist? One thing I don't like is when people claim others to be wrong to make themselves "look right" ... Similarily, I have never said my views and the points I have raised are "right" and that others are "wrong" ...

The short answer is reality, Dave. I have no time to expand on this but will do so later (have to go out). But one hint: It is life that gives rise to the concept of value. Life, existence itself, sets the standard. More later.

 

[submissivedave]

The short answer is reality, Dave. I have no time to expand on this but will do so later (have to go out). But one hint: It is life that gives rise to the concept of value. Life, existence itself, sets the standard. More later.

What is "reality"?

The value of value is it's value. But, these values are given by man. Even if man did not exist, things still have its intrinsic value such as animals, nature, etc. etc.

Again, you are making man bigger then he is ...

 

[submissivedave]

A HA !!!!! So its a neo-mercantilism !!!!!! The classic approach of exploitation ...

Or put it this way:

Have a proxy government in Iraq to exploit the Iraqis while it serves the US and the UK. With this, the proxy government deals with all the "mess" while the US and the UK laughs their asses off sellling their capital and shit while getting Iraqi oil ...

 

[Alien (<>..<>)]

Have a proxy government in Iraq to exploit the Iraqis while it serves the US and the UK. With this, the proxy government deals with all the "mess" while the US and the UK laughs their asses off sellling their capital and shit while getting Iraqi oil ...

And the sad thing is that there are a lot of stupid iraqis "celebrating" the "newly acquired freedom" of Iraq..........I pity those fools because they don't know that they are in fact celebrating their country's enslavement.

 

[Cardinal Fang]

I guess by your assumption the entire western world under the banner of democracy is "enslaved."

Ah extremist!

 

[Wired For Sound]

What is "reality"?

The value of value is it's value. But, these values are given by man. Even if man did not exist, things still have its intrinsic value such as animals, nature, etc. etc.

Again, you are making man bigger then he is ...

Reality is what allows you ask the question: What is reality? What a thing IS determines what it OUGHT to do. You exist and have a specific nature. The fundamental alternative we all face as humans is existence or non-existence -- life or death. Life, for man, is not automatically gauranteed. Our power is not in brute strength, but in our unique faculty -- our volitional conceptual faculty. Now, as I said, life is not automatically gauranteed. In order to survive life confronts us with several musts. In order to survive we must eat. In order to eat we must find food. In order to find food we must think. But all of this is an act of choice. Thinking, the use of reason, is our basic tool of survival. When we fail, reality punishes us. It is pitiless and indifferent to our continued existence. Reality merely is. You need to take the actions required of your nature to survive. Facts, as such, have value significance. So life requires self sustaining, self generating action on the part of us humans. Life is man's standard of value. It is life that gives rise to a moral code, and thus, values. That which allows humans to flourish is the moral; that which impedes man's survival is the immoral. Right and wrong, is therefore converted from what is true and false about our nature. This is how metaphysics, epistemology and ethics are tied together.

There's far more to this than what I've writen, but that's a start. This is why I can say, with much confidence, that certain cultures are not conducive to man's nature qua man. There can be a ranking of cultures based on their capacity to conform to our nature.

As for colonialism: exploitation of other people's natural resources is great for everyone and I very much advocate it.(See works by authors, Julian Simon and Peter Bauer). As for slavery, it was the West that put an end to it this old worldwide practice.

 

[Quest4Less]

My five cents (inflation...)

Some of you people are a real joke, only it's not funny.

Look at all the countries in the world and if you have even a shread of honesty, you will admit that the USA is one of the best places to live. It has one of the highest quality of life factors, and one of (if not the) highest levels of personal freedoms. You can worship who you want (if anyone at all), you can vote for who you want, and you can do pretty much anything you want.

As far as Iraq goes, they are better off now and will continue to get even better. As long as they don't turn into a religeous theocracy (sp?) like some are worried about.

The USA may not be perfect, but stacked up against the other choices I can think of a lot worse places to live.

 

[Alien (<>..<>)]

Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed off too in learning that I no can longer celebrate joyous occassions, such as public hangings, having close relatives butchered, watching someone have their tongue cut and bleed to death

Excuse me but why didn't Americans "liberated" Iraq 15 years ago when Saddam was America's slave-boy? He committed all these atrocities at that time too. Why expose him for what he is only after he tried to beat the US in acquiring the Middle East's oil?

Why was Noriega and Bin Laden "bad" only after they turned against the U.S? Hypocrites!!!!

 

[wooly110]

Bush Sr. has publicly admitted that it was a mistake not to take care of business 15 years ago. The problem he said was that his mandate was to liberate Kuwait and not go after Saddam as Swartzkoff had suggested.

On another note. Now that the US and Britain are the "occupying power" when am I gonna see cheap gas prices again??

I hate this 60-77cents/litre crap.

 

[Alien (<>..<>)]

PALLADYN: I agree completely, U.S. companies are going to fuck Iraq 3-ways through Sunday. The people of Iraq should rise up against America and get their pride back. The reconstruction of Iraq should be done by Iraqi companies and personnel, if the US was a just "liberator" it would exactly do that, but since it's a corrupted country they will imbed their $45/hr workers to rebuild Iraq. This is akin to Sammy "the bull" Fratiano making $$$ from his books and upcoming movie, he's getting rewarded for committing crimes.

 

[submissivedave]

There's far more to this than what I've writen, but that's a start. This is why I can say, with much confidence, that certain cultures are not conducive to man's nature qua man. There can be a ranking of cultures based on their capacity to conform to our nature.

As for colonialism: exploitation of other people's natural resources is great for everyone and I very much advocate it.(See works by authors, Julian Simon and Peter Bauer). As for slavery, it was the West that put an end to it this old worldwide practice.

I agree with you, cultures can be ranked. Here is my personal ranking:

Philosophy: Greeks, Germans, Hindus and Chinese

Sculpturing: without a doubt the Italians man !!! Michaelangelo can take on anyone anytime !!!

War strategy: Germans, Chinese, Greeks and Persians as well as the Mongols

Music (operas): Germans, Italians and Japanese (as in Noh and Kabuki)

Technology and science: Germans, Americans, Brits, Egyptians, Persians and Chinese ...

Innovations and eccentricity: Brits and French

Politics: Brits for sure man !!! No doubt about it ...

Modern Science: Brits and Americans and Germans

Engineering: Germans and Americans

You see where I am getting at? Each culture has there own strong points and weak points.

Another thing is, when Hegel said that the Orientals were on the bottom of the list when it came to levels of freedom, I agree with him. At the same time, when Nietzsche claimed that Asiatic cultures were of the "third rank", I too agree with him. However, when Leibniz and the Jesuits claimed that Chinese philosophy was practical and morally superior, I too agree with them. Furthermore, Paul Ducsen(sp?), Nietzsche's friend said so many good things about Asia ... I too have to say that I agree ...

So this only means one thing. Each culture has their own strong points and weak points. I mean as an Asian dude, I got to admit that the West is superior when it comes to economics and science and technology ... but it does not mean it is also superior in everything else. For instance, the much beloved Impressionist paintings were highly influenced by Japanese paintings mainly the famed series "Thirty Six Views of Mout Fuji"?

And when you talk about the highly desirable chinas of the 18-19 centuries that they were imitations of Ming Chinese procelain?

Or how about the Western adaptation of gun powder, the compus, the rudder, printing techniques that Guttenberg(sp?) popularized. And then you have the numer system (1,2,3,4, etc.) which is called Arabic number system ... but in fact came from the Hindus. How about the coffees that Western people drink? The West never had any of that. Or tomatoes for the pastas that everyone loves. Or all this "New Age" stuff ... where did it all come from? Not to mention post-modernism ...

I mean it is very hard to distinguish how much impact one culture has on another simply because every culture has borrowed so much from each other ... so how can you really say which culture is superior or rank them?

Sure, you can break them up into catgories first like I did earlier. But if you have a look, I am sure one culture will at least the number one spot once.

But if you really forced me to rank cultures, well, lets just say I have alot of admiration for Jews, Hindus, Germans and Brits even though I am Chinese myself ...

As for your slavery thing ... well, yeah ... the White man was the first to end it. But yet, they were also the ones who did it first, in terms of institutionalized slavery of other peoples. I mean yeah, the Greeks, Egyptians and Chinese had slaves. But it was not on race.

Yeah, the White man has apologized for they're wrong doings ... and its is a good thing to admit what you have done wrong because you've learned ... but yet, the damage has already been done. The only thing that you can do is look forward and not to commit the same crimes again. And thats is what one of the principles of the Nuremberg(sp?) trials are for ...

 

[submissivedave]

I guess by your assumption the entire western world under the banner of democracy is "enslaved."

Ah extremist!

Ah ... have you heard of a term used by de Tocqueville called "self despotism"?