Warning to all owners of 96 and up GM 3800 V6 engines

[james t kirk]

If anyone out there owns a 96 or up GM 3.1, 3.4, or especially the not so mighty 3.8 litre engine.

Watch it. Your wallet, and a great deal of grief could be on the line.

The problem stems from the upper intake manifold being made of plastic.

Over time, the plastic melts due to engine heat (especially around the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve where it pipes into the intake manifold.

When this happens, the coolant will mix with the oil and the results are catastrophic.

My car is a a high end GM with approx. 100,000 km and 4 years old.

When the coolant mixed with the oil, i was on the highway, and my connecting rod bearings / crankshaft were burned.

Essentially that means you need a new engine.

A new engine for my car is $6,000.00 from GM including all taxes.

The most obscene part of the story is that the new engine is identical in design to the old design.

GM is WELL AWARE of the problem, but they are in denial mode of any responsibility (naturally, since the recall would cost them BILLIONS.)

Tip:

If you own such a car - watch your coolant level like a hawk. If it starts to drop for no reason, you are on the verge. Apparently the first thing to go is the upper intake manifold gasket. Which if caught in time is a $2,000.00 repair bill (no word of a lie)

All coolant leaks will be internal so you won't see any puddles under your car.

You have to open the rad and monitor the coolant level, and that's the rad, not the overflow bottle, so make sure the car is COLD orelse you will be having a shower the hard way.

Coolant should not in any way be used during the normal operation of an engine.

I can not believe what an idiotic design this is (i.e. using a plasitic intake manifold) The manifold should have been made out of aluminium and this would not have happened. Instead GM decided to save about 50 bucks at the manufacturing level and use PLASTIC. Any fool knows what happens to plastic when it gets hot.

There are actually websites devouted to this exact problem and it has happened to me.

www.gm-v6lemons.com

with a link to a web petition on which there are over 800 signatures of folks who have the exact same problem.

This should never happen. The intake manifold should never fail unless the coolant is water and freezes and cracks the manifold.

Further evidence - the dealers all stock the part. Some dealers are fixing 2 and 3 of these a day and engine failures are not uncommon.

Beware....

 

[james t kirk]

hi there,

My car was babied. The oil changed every 5k, even insisting on GM filter, always took care of issues that came up, even had the plastic bumpers repainted to keep the thing looking good.

What a joke.

If your engine is a 3.1, 3.4, or 3.8 litre engine, you have the same type of upper intake manifold that i do.

You should be worried.

An easy way to tell is to remove the fuel injector sight shield (that large useless stupid piece of plastic that covers the engine to make it look spiffy) and if you see a black plastic top to your engine about 2' long and 10" wide, that's the part baby.

The design of the upper intake manifold has been plastic since 96, and continues in production today. The design has not been changed. At one time, GM was crowing about reducing the weight of the engine (yeah, by using recycled coke bottles to form an intake manifold and even an oil pan (which also leaks))

To change the design now, before the scheduled redesign of the engine would be tantamount to admitance on GM's part that they have a problem.

As i said, this problem is HUGE, affecting millions of units. It would be the most stunning recall in automotive history, dwarfing the the recent firestone debacle with Ford.

How many V-6 engines has GM made since 1996?

At $2,000 bucks a pop just to change the gaskets, you do the math. The cost woud be staggering, GM's share price would be devasted. They are not going to go easy on this one.

From the on line petition, all problems seem to be occuring after 60,000 miles, though not always. Problems range from just the gaskets (2,000 bucks) to snapped cam shafts (need a new engine then, to burned out bearing, twisted connecting rods (all of which mean the engine is toast.)

I have now learned that a class action lawsuit is under consideration in the states (actually received the email this evening)

I have fired off a letter to GM making a claim. If they brush me off, i will take this to the next level. I will not let this go, since this is an obvious design flaw in a part that should never break down. This is simple stupidity on GM's part.

I wouldn't trust your dealer. They are in the business of making money, helping you once the problem has occured, not preventing it. You can try asking him if he is aware of the problem and see what he says. If you want to suprise him, ask him about GM Technical Services Bulletin under: 01-06-01-007 (A).

See what he says then.

As I said, open your rad (when the engine is cold!!!!!), if you see the level of coolant (orange dex-cool) dropping over time, you are in trouble and seek out repairs immediately.

Don't ignore it thinking it is just one of those things. This has cost me large.

 

[KBear]

Cars generally seem far superior now then in the past. But I would be afraid to drive if I did not have the extended warranty on the car. The last two cars I have had both had major breakdowns with the parts alone costing thousands. I did not see the labour cost, but in both cases the car was in the shop for a week.

These hi-tech cars are great, until something goes wrong.

 

[Bboy]

wonder if GM is Still putting this 'defective' part on the engines they're making today?

 

[james t kirk]

Re: Just a few comments on the situation

This may or may not be helpful to some so here goes:

1) You're talking about two different engine here. The 3800 is a totally different design than the 3.1 and 3.4. The 3800 was created in the late 70 or early 80s by slicing two cyminders off a regualr V-8. The smaller v-6 was a fresh design in the eighties. Not that that seems to make them work better......CC

Yes, I know they are totally different designs, mine is the 3800 Series II, but from what i read on the internet on www.gm-v6lemons.com the 3.1 and the 3.4 all feature the same plastic upper intake manifold, or at least a plastic upper intake manifold and all suffer from the same problem - internal coolant leaks causing oil to mix with water and boom there she goes.

2) I think a thermo-plastic is used for the intake manifold because it was thought to work better than aluminium on that situatin. The cast iron that the engine block is made of and aluminium have different expansion rates when heated. It's not to hard to get them to mate when it's just two falt survaces lile head to block in an inline four, but getting it to work in the valley of a v-8 where the intake manifold would be is a real PITA. CC

On the 3800, the block and heads are cast iron BUT, the lower intake manifold is made of aluminum, the upper intake manifold (there are now two intake manifolds on cars) is made of plastic, the trottle body is made of aluminum. Essentially you have aluminum, bolted to plastic, bolted to aluminum, bolted to iron. How stupid is that?

The problem is that the plastic can not stand up to the heat over time. Aluminum would be entirely possible, it would just cost a bit more. It's just a simple casting.

3) You don't have to get a new engine. You can go to an independent garage and they can get a used one and install if for around $2,000 total, or go for a remanufactured on for a lot less than a new engine.

HTH


CC

A used engine is a possibility, but it will cost more like 3 grand. The engine itself was quoted at $1,500 bucks from Dominion Auto Wreckers, Installation is a grand. Add taxes, you are at 3 grand verses 6 grand for new.

Either way, it's a lot of money for a failure that should not be occuring, and either way, you get the same stupid idiotic plastic upper intake manifold and plastic oil pan.

My recommendation would be to avoid purchasing any GM product so equipped until such time as GM gets this sorted out.

If you already have such a GM product, keep your eyes on the coolant level.

To bboy:

Yes, GM is still putting the same intake manifold on their cars today. The design is IDENTICAL. Now whether or not they have changed the chemical composition of the plastic, that I don't know.

 

[james t kirk]

bottom line guys..should i be worried about my 2000 malibu with 70k..whats it gonna cost to correct the problem..what should i ask dealer..what about my bros 2001 venture

tbill,

I thought i made it pretty clear....

If you have the black plastic upper intake manifold, the answer is yes. I don't know perse if a chevy malibu is FOR SURE equipped. You have to look at your engine and see if it has the black plastic intake manifold. PM with your email address and i will send you a photo of what the damn thing looks like.

I get the feeling you don't know shit from tar about cars, and that's cool. At least you understand the implications of cost.

You will probably make it to 100k without any problems. After that, you are living on borrowed time.

To replace just the gaskets (upper and lower intake manifolds), from the dealer, will cost you 2,000. (I have the quote from a GM dealer before it was determined (the hard way) that the engine was gone.

re the venture van, click on the website i posted the link to. I believe the guy who started the site owns a chevy venture van, infact, he even has a picture posted there.

You can never correct the problem either because the design of the new part is the same as the old part. Unless GM changes the design, you can count on doing this work every 100,000 k or so.

Everyone out there knows you have to change timing belts every so often, the dealer even will tell you.

GM is not telling its customers that you have to buy a new upper intake manifold and or upper and lower gaskets every 100,000 km however.

As far as buying a VW goes, it's funny you should say that, because that's exactly what i was thinking to do.

I will tell you this. After all this bullshit, and money, and the general poor design of this P.O.S. (and a bloody expensive P.O.S. too) I WILL NEVER EVER EVER BUY ANOTHER GM PRODUCT AGAIN AS LONG AS I LIVE, unless GM does 2 things. One - pays me what it cost me at their dealers, and 2. Changes this design back to metal.

 

[Sixer]

Some foreign automobiles are very experience when it comes to repairs and maintenances. Many times you can only go to certain servicing dealers and they charge you a bundle when the automotive parts are imported.

 

[poorboy]

I drive a 1990 3.1 litre with 229,000 kms and it is still running strong. My brother also has a 90 3.1 with 250,000 that runs well too.

I know of a 1985 3.8 with 250,000 km and a 1988 3.8 with 241,000kms. The 85 had an head gasket go, but 17 years use is pretty good in my opinion. The 1988 engine was still running, but the body was gone because he never washed it. I know of a 1989 280,000 km 3.8 that is still running.

I know of a 1996 supercharged 3800 with over 300,000 kms.

I helped a freind purchase a 1997 supercharged 3800 that now has 95,000 kms.

All GM LS1 and LS6 v8 motors also have composite intakes as well as Ford Crown Victorias. Composite intakes are quite common and offer superior thermal stability.

Your problem is unfortunate and costly. I know how you feel because I have replaced head gaskets several times on GM 3.8 V6 cars. They failed because I run 22 lbs of turbo boost or more at the track instead of the 15 lbs from the factory. In all my years of searching turbobuick.com and club gp.com, I have never heard that the intake is a major design flaw with the 3.8.

I have been driving GM 3.8 and 3.1 V6 cars since 1989 and my main hobby is repairing and racing cars, which I have been doing for ten years.

GM produces over 500,000 3800 V6 engines a year which are installed in Impalas, Lesabres, Park Aves, Regals, Grand Prix, and Monte Carlos. Yet since 1996, only 800 people have signed a petition.

All parts are subject to failure. You were unlucky that you had a part fail and that you didn't catch in time by monitoring your coolant level.

 

[james t kirk]

I drive a 1990 3.1 litre with 229,000 kms and it is still running strong. My brother also has a 90 3.1 with 250,000 that runs well too.

I know of a 1985 3.8 with 250,000 km and a 1988 3.8 with 241,000kms. The 85 had an head gasket go, but 17 years use is pretty good in my opinion. The 1988 engine was still running, but the body was gone because he never washed it. I know of a 1989 280,000 km 3.8 that is still running.

Read my post, the engines affected are from 1996 onwards. You are comparing apples to oranges mon ami. My post does not pertain to pre 1996 engines.

I also owned a series I 3800 in a 1988 lesabre which has given very few problems, infact, it has about 280,000 km on it.

The Series I is in fact is equipped with a metalic intake manifold and does not suffer from heat related failure like the plastic manifolds in today's GM scrap.

I know of a 1996 supercharged 3800 with over 300,000 kms.

I helped a freind purchase a 1997 supercharged 3800 that now has 95,000 kms.

All GM LS1 and LS6 v8 motors also have composite intakes as well as Ford Crown Victorias. Composite intakes are quite common and offer superior thermal stability.

All supercharged engines do NOT HAVE PLASTIC INTAKE MANIFOLDS. They are a type 1 engine in which the supercharger takes the place of the plastic upper intake manifold. I believe they have the aluminum lower intake manifold (like the k type), but NO PLASTIC UPPER.

Anyone who owns a super charged 3.8 litre engine will not have this problem because there is no plastic upper intake manifold to fail. All those guys who convinced the old lady that they had to have the supercharged version unknowingly saved themselves thousands of dollars.

Again, not the same engine.

According the the service manual the 3800 nonsupercharged engine is a type K engine. the supercharged 3800 is a type 1.

GM produces over 500,000 3800 V6 engines a year which are installed in Impalas, Lesabres, Park Aves, Regals, Grand Prix, and Monte Carlos. Yet since 1996, only 800 people have signed a petition.

TRUE,

But how many people even think to look on the net?? How many have their cars break down and just merely pay the bill and accept it as the way it goes??? The problem typically occurs from 100,000 km onwards. Since these engines only went into production in 1996, most people are only now encountering this problem. Most people probably put on between 10 to 20 thousand miles a year.

You want more proof.....

There is a nationwide back order of upper intake manifold gaskets. This is a fact, see www.gm-v6lemons.com.

The dealers are changing 2 and 3 A DAY. They love this action.

There is a class action lawsuit being put together by a law firm in michigan at the current time.

The dealers stock the upper intake manifold itself. Go into a dealer and ask for an intake manifold for your 1990 3.1 litre engine and see what they tell you. (You will have to order it and pay for it in advance.) Not so with the plastic intake manifold.

All parts are subject to failure. You were unlucky that you had a part fail and that you didn't catch in time by monitoring your coolant level.

An intake manifold should not fail unless the rad has been filled with water and the engine froze and the manifold cracked, or (and it's a stretch) there was severe overheating and someone took a garden hose to the engine to attemp to cool it down and the sudden thermal shock cracked the cast.

Cylinder heads, blocks, intake manifolds, various other castings do not wear out. They are not considered wear parts.

The failure of my upper intake manifold occured on highway 427 at high speed. Once the coolant mixed with the oil, it was over in a matter of seconds. The big end connecting rod bearings burned into the journals.

I initially tried replacing just the upper intake manifold gasket, not realizing that there were small cracks in the water jacket at the back of the manifold into the EGR inlet port. The engine when fired up would run at ilde for approximately 1 minute before it drowned in coolant at IDLE.

This is NOT a problem that should be occuring.

The usage of plastic is based purely on the fact that it is cheap.

GM also uses plastic oil pans now, and these oil pans are also defective. The dealers will tell you that your oil pan is "sweating"

An aluminum intake manifold could have avoided all this BS.

 

[poorboy]

If you visit car sites like ls1.com, camaroz28.com and even mustang sites like the Coral and ask about the 3800, I think you will find that almost all will agree that the 3800 is a nice simple sound pushrod engine with a steel timing chain and is one of the top 10 engines in the world right now. If the problem was that common, every 10th post on Club GP.com would be about this problem the way the LT1 guys complain about their Optispark.

The OPP uses 3800 powered Impalas, and they keep their cars for 140,000 to 160,000 hard kms. After that, most end up as taxi’s in later life. Countless other Police forces and taxi companies across North America use Impalas as well. I don’t think GM would be able to sell this engine to taxi and police forces and expect repeat sales year after year if they were not dependable. Word gets around in those circles. The Buick LeSabre would not be able to remain the most popular full size sedan in North America year after year either.

All parts are susceptible to failure. Even aluminum intake manifolds crack because of bad casting. As far as thermal shock by putting a garden hose to the intake, it is possible, but not likely. It is an age old trick that everyone uses at the track is packing bags of ice on the intake between runs to lower the charge temperature. If you have a composite intake like the LS1 and LS6 cars, you don’t have to because composite is more thermally stable.

The early Saturn SOHC heads, which are steel, are famous for cracking and leaking coolant. Almost every single one will at one point, and GM actually covers the cost on a factory recall for those lowly Saturns so that they can get a revised head design. I don’t believe the story about GM dealers changing 2 or 3 a day. One of my better friends is a GM mechanic, and he never says anything about the 3800. Even with factory recall items such as faulty fuel pumps or transmission solenoids, they rarely change more than 1 or 2 a day.

Gaskets also fail. Even the 3.1 I have is susceptible to intake gasket separation, carboning of the throttle body, and if abused, piston slap. These things will happen to some engines, but not all, the same way a timing belt will break on some motors before their regularly scheduled interval.

As far as the dealership stocking parts, why wouldn’t they stock a part or series of parts that are used in V6 Camaros and Firebirds, Impalas, Monte Carlos, Regals, Grand Prix, the first year Intirgue, Bonnevilles, 88’s, 98’s, LeSabres, and Park Avenues. Makes sense to stock parts that are used in so many cars. It was also the optional engine on the GM FWD minivans in the mid 90’s.

Again, I know how you feel. It shouldn’t happen, but it does. It won’t change your opinion, but what it boils down to is you were unlucky.

 

[james t kirk]

If you visit car sites like ls1.com, camaroz28.com and even mustang sites like the Coral and ask about the 3800, I think you will find that almost all will agree that the 3800 is a nice simple sound pushrod engine with a steel timing chain and is one of the top 10 engines in the world right now. If the problem was that common, every 10th post on Club GP.com would be about this problem the way the LT1 guys complain about their Optispark.

I disagree friend....

check out the following websites...

www.complaintcenter.com (there are quite a few people posting here about problems with this.

Want something more techical, try this one...

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb110112.htm

Here's a review for you, all the reviewers of the Bonneville have the same thing to say (Are we all wrong?????)

http://www.carreview.com/PRD_279_1531crx.aspx#Reviews

And here's another...

http://forums.vmag.com/mvmontana1199/messages/144.html

I could cut and paste all night long

The OPP uses 3800 powered Impalas, and they keep their cars for 140,000 to 160,000 hard kms. After that, most end up as taxi’s in later life. Countless other Police forces and taxi companies across North America use Impalas as well. I don’t think GM would be able to sell this engine to taxi and police forces and expect repeat sales year after year if they were not dependable. Word gets around in those circles. The Buick LeSabre would not be able to remain the most popular full size sedan in North America year after year either.

I really don't know the police interceptor specs to be honest. I highly doubt it is a conventional type k motor.

From my google search it appears that there is a great deal of information on the net associated with the crown victoria police interceptor.

As far as the dealership stocking parts, why wouldn’t they stock a part or series of parts that are used in V6 Camaros and Firebirds, Impalas, Monte Carlos, Regals, Grand Prix, the first year Intirgue, Bonnevilles, 88’s, 98’s, LeSabres, and Park Avenues. Makes sense to stock parts that are used in so many cars. It was also the optional engine on the GM FWD minivans in the mid 90’s.

Dealers stock parts that move, that they need on a regular basis. They don't stock parts that don't sell. They don' t have the space.

Ask the dealer if he has cylinder heads for your car in stock, or the front timing chain cover, or an oil pan...

Again, I know how you feel. It shouldn’t happen, but it does. It won’t change your opinion, but what it boils down to is you were unlucky.

PM me with your email address, i will send you the photos of my upper intake manifold. You tell me then that i am unlucky.

Luck has nothing to do with poor engineering and negligence.

The car has been properly maintained.

The problem was diagnosed by a dealer in 30 seconds. The diagonosis reads that the upper intake manifold gasket has melted (now how did he know that without being able to see the gasket??)

Answer, because it is a known problem.

 

[poorboy]

Thanks for the offer to view your engine, but I’ll pass. I’ve seen lots of spun bearings and engine failures.

Your opinion of the 3800 is based on what you have researched on the internet and the unfortunate failure you experienced in your car.

My opinion of the 3800 is based on what I have researched on the internet, 10 years of fixing 3.8’s, the lack of complaints about the engine from my GM mechanic friend, what the drag racing community has to say about it, the fact that it is used by countless police forces and taxi services, which according to Car & Driver magazine use the same normally aspirated motor that is the backbone in all of GM’s large cars and some mid size cars, be it Cheverolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile or Buick and hasn’t been replaced by the 200 hp 3.5L V6 that was introduced in 1999, the second year of the now discontinued Oldsmobile Intrigue.

Both of our opinions are biased, and neither of us will change them.

I sympathize with you. A blown engine is an expensive fix. The intake is a problem, but it is not a catastrophic design flaw that will cause everyone who owns one of the 2,000,000 or more 1996 and up 3800’s to blow their motor like you make it out to be. If you had a Crown Victoria that seized its motor, you would feel the same way about the 4.6L as you do about the 3800.

The purpose of our postings are the same. To inform people about the 3800. They can draw their own conclusions from our postings.

 

[imhumorless]

First of all, tGM sells a lot of V-6s. So when you look at the web siteswith horror stories and then find out how many of those V-6s they sell, you will find it a fairly small percentage.
And if that doesn't help, you could always trade in your GM for whatever little bit you can get for it...
AND BUY A GOOD CAR... like a Toyota or Honda.






(Let the flames begin)

 

[james t kirk]

Actually poorboy, i was referring to the photos of the plastic upper intake manifold itself. How the material around the EGR valve is holed, and cracked. Obviously it can not stand up to day to day usage.

Your opinion, which is your right i agree is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. the cops use this engine, therefore it is good. GM sells lots of these engines, therefore it is good.

Provide the links to sites that say this is a great engine. I would love to post otherwise.

I have provided several links to several sites (both technical and review format) that say this engine in its current K format is a piece of shit.

I have been laying under cars since i was 8 years old, and though i am not a mechanic, i have a background beyond that of your every day mechanic, trust me.

I have also always considered myself a GM man when it came to domestic iron.

Nevertheless you are correct that we each have our own opinions.

Mine is based on what has happened to me, and what i have determined to be the cause of the problem.

I am providing simple warning to anyone considering investing in a GM that this is what has happened to me and thousands of others.

BUT

I must thank you (seriously)

You have given me a brilliant idea.

I have no idea if indeed the cops are using the type K engine in their persuit cars or not.

But, i wonder if the National Police Association or even the City of Toronto cops would be interested in my / many other people's problems with reliability with their type K engines.

I wonder if GM wouldn't be less than thrilled at the notion of the police opting to go with fords and or chryslers rather than invest in such a piece of shit as the type k equipped persuit car.

cheers

jim

 

[Animal]

Bye bye to my GM.

I said I was going to do it and I did. Sold it this morning and buddy is picking it up after Christmas for his wife.

WEEHAW

GM can kiss my ass. That is 7 gone out of our family since the incident and 1 more on the block.

Animal

 

[james t kirk]

Interesting tbill.

GM offered me 800 bucks too.

I guess this is the standard offer.

My problem however cost $5,000 Canadian.

I told GM to shove their offer since i considered it an insult.

Obviously what i am getting is just the standard GM autoreply.

I intend to take GM to court on this one.

I have subsequently learned that the plastic in question is made by Dupont and is called Zytel Nylon 66.

Ford was using it in their crown victorias, however, in May 25, 2001 issued recall 01M02 and I quote....

"Ford Motor Company will extend the recall (01M02) on 4.6L V8 equipped vehicles with plastic intake manifolds. Some of the coposite intake manifolds used on 4.6L SOHC engines may develop fatigue cracks at the coolant crossover duct. This condition could result in engine coolant leakage which, if not serviced may cause engine overheating. Complete loss of coolant may result in engine damage or engine failure"

This is EXACTLY what happened to my car.

I further quote from the Ford recall.....

"....If an intake manifold coolant leak is detected, the dealer will replace the intake manifold. Owners of the affected cars are being notified that additional coverage for this specific condition is being provided. The coverage will be for 7 years from the warranty start date of the vehicle (no mileage limitation.) This automatic coverage is automatically transferred to subsequent owners"

So it would appear that Ford has carried out a recall, yet GM is somehow avoiding it.

I have also learned that in 1994, the issue of plastic intake manifold warping was studied in depth by professor P.K. Mallick of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Michigan.

Blah blah blah.

Long and short of it, GM is building the biggest pieces of shit on the road today. Total disasterville quality.

I was at the dealer recently for ANOTHER electrical problem and talking to the parts guy. He told me that "the top end on the 3.8's is terrible nowadays"

 

[james t kirk]

To Alexa,

NO,

You are lucky you have the supercharged version...

The supercharger takes the place of the crappy plastic intake manifold.

Money well spent buying the supercharged version.

PS

There are as of today 1041 signatures on the internet petition of people who have suffered similar fates.

see www.gm-v6lemons.com

 

[Sixer]

James,

Are they going to replace your plastic intake manifold with an aluminium one? I hope they don’t just replace it with another plastic one. I believe I got a similar problem in my car as well. On my last oil change, my mechanic told me I have a small leak from the intake manifold. My GM car is relatively new. I hope it is under the car warranty.

 

[crocket]

Is it not the intake manifold "gasket" that is the problem with your vehicles, not the manifold itself? Thats what I saw on tv last week (Auto Talk). I've never seen any manifolds which were actually made of plastic. Good luck with your vehicles guys.

 

[poorboy]

tbill,

ANY car sold in North America in the past 10 years should be able to make it 10 years or 250,000 kms. Most cars should last 15 years or 300,000 kms if properly maintained. You say if you spent 6 or 7 G's more, you would have been better off with the Accord. If you are knowledgeable with what is being repaired on your Malibu, you shouldn't even come close to that in extra maintenance vs. the Accord. As well, 6 or 7 G's would have put you into a completely different GM car than a Malibu.

I myself am not impressed with Honda's. My sister's Prelude broke it's timing belt 15,000 kms before its scheduled change interval. This happens more fequently than you think. If it didn't happen when she was at idle, she would have been looking at replacing bent valves and possiblly a new head. She currently has an Intergra, which has had more money in rust repair dumped into it than any GM car our family has owned. So far, exhaust repairs have cost over $750 for a 1 to 1.5 inch intermediate pipe and some heat shields, and it is in need of a $400 muffler That's for parts only, not including my labour. I can buy a 3 inch stainless steel mandrel bent turbo exhaust pipe with integral wastegate for $600 for my turbo Buick. Of course, I can't forget about the $400 power antenna and the fact the interior door panels develop a white coating on them every winter. The HVAC unit was replaced under warranty, so I don't know the cost.

I have found with the Japanese is that they don't like publishing recalls. Sometimes when you take the car in and complain about a problem, they'll say "oh we'll take care of that" and not charge you, only to discover after looking it up on the internet later that it is a common problem.

And then there is the lack of torque in these cars. Couldn't win a drag race across the intersection with either that Prelude or the Integra.

The grass always looks greener on the other side.

Crocket,

Lots of cars have plastic intakes. Among them, the mighty 405 hp LS6 used in the Z06 Corvette.

Sixer,

You have to be more specific on the type of car you own for anyone to help you.

You guys got to remember that cars have over 3,000 components in them. Nowadays, most have computers that are more powerful than what was used to land the Apollo 11 on the moon. Some cars are better than others, but parts will fail no matter who makes it.