What have we learned from all this......

[Jasmine Raine]

So with all the threads here, all the talk in the media, all the movements and charities and social media justice warriors going on and on about sexual assault, sexual harassment, etc, - what do we learn? How do we take all the discussion and actually turn it into positive change? When is it time to stop talking and starting acting? Where is the resolution?

I think 3 things to happen.

1. False accusers need to start being arrested, charged, convicted and punished more. It is the false accusers that are really fucking up these situations.

2. Affirmative consent. The narrative of No Means No needs to change to Yes Mean Yes. I can not stress enough the need to start asking for that yes. Even if you think it is stupid, unromantic, whatever. It protects you.

3. No more "Non-verbal" cues. Women need to use their voice. Period. They can no longer rely on the man getting the message. You need to speak up.

I truly believe if these three things happened, there would be fewer situations, more focus on true victims, and more criminal accountability would be happening.

Thoughts?

 

[sempel]

I think you are correct on all 3 points.

 

[canada-man]

there are new stories where false rape accusers are being arrested

 

[sempel]

I think #3 is going to be hard. Refer to Aziz Ansari thread. Here is a case where she had ample opportunity and time to say something/anything and didn't. Women DO need to speak up more in all situations and guys should be able to accept their responses. I don't get why a guy can't accept a no and just stop. I don't get why some guys get violent when this happens. I haven't been in a situation where I've heard a no/stop so I can only speculate about how I'd react. I might be surprised/upset/angry. I would probably pack up and leave and depending on the situation, maybe the relationship is over and I'm done. But to lose my shit? Seems nutty but I guess that's how some guys react.

 

[managee]

So with all the threads here, all the talk in the media, all the movements and charities and social media justice warriors going on and on about sexual assault, sexual harassment, etc, - what do we learn? How do we take all the discussion and actually turn it into positive change? When is it time to stop talking and starting acting? Where is the resolution?

I think 3 things to happen.

1. False accusers need to start being arrested, charged, convicted and punished more. It is the false accusers that are really fucking up these situations.

2. Affirmative consent. The narrative of No Means No needs to change to Yes Mean Yes. I can not stress enough the need to start asking for that yes. Even if you think it is stupid, unromantic, whatever. It protects you.

3. No more "Non-verbal" cues. Women need to use their voice. Period. They can no longer rely on the man getting the message. You need to speak up.

I truly believe if these three things happened, there would be fewer situations, more focus on true victims, and more criminal accountability would be happening.

Thoughts?

I’m not sure I agree with your last sentence on #1. Harvey Weinstein and his ilk are the ones really fucking this up. The false accusers are also definitively harming the movement by providing a scapegoat instead of allowing the dialogue to continue under the umbrella of honesty and truth. Blame for this needs to stay firmly on the perpetrators until proven innocent.

Criminalize reporting in any way, and we’re back to where we were.

If it’s her word against his, and he can afford high-end lawyers to protect his version of the truth, who would come forward with the risk as outlined above? If she can falsely accuse, he can falsely accuse her of false accusation. A very slippery slope IMO.

===

I think #2 makes a lot of sense, and that applying these rules not only in the bedroom, but on the streets or at the club, and VERY importantly, in the office, will make the world a much better place.

I’m interested in hearing if you, or any of the other women here, are hearing more requests for consent when you meet clients than you did before? I know I've asked “Are you OK with me...” enough times to make me wonder what the appropriate words should be for consent to GFE, or your definition of GFE or bodyslide (etc.) in the context of an SP-client or MPA-client engagement.

What’s really impacting me is the statistic that 54% of women reported receiving unwanted and inappropriate sexual advances, with 95% saying the behaviour usually goes without punishment. That ABC poll was in reference to actions I never really second guessed when I partook in them, and I feel shame for the impact it’s likely had on women in my life.

Did you get consent from the last girl you crushed on at the bar while waiting for you drink last night? I did. It was weird.

I cannot deny that in the last 12-months I’ve flirted ‘innocently’ with coworkers or even people I supervise, without second guessing my actions after the fact. The office had always had that ‘vibe.’ I’ve had no interest in a sexual relationship with a coworker or fellow employee (of late), but flirting was always the language of our office.

The bar for what’s acceptable without ongoing, direct, informed consent has been substantially raised. As should the quality of our behaviour.

===

I’m with you on #3, but knowing that not all women can easily speak their truth and remain safe, secure, employed, housed (etc.), I think it’s got to be on (we) the men to stop putting women in a situation where #3 could come into play.

 

[thumper18474]

trying to change an entire culture is whimsical..at best
there will always be douchebags pushing limits
false accusers making false statement for various reasons
whats happening now is just the tip of the iceberg and it will never be removed from society, as sad as it may be
all we can do is conduct ourselves in our own space.

but thats just me

T.

 

[sempel]

I’m with you on #3, but knowing that not all women can easily speak their truth and remain safe, secure, employed, housed (etc.), I think it’s got to be on (we) the men to stop putting women in a situation where #3 could come into play.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. How in the world can we (men) avoid the situation? Abstinence?

Scenario - you are with a girl, she positively consents to sex. At some point during the act, she changes her mind but says nothing but offers non-verbal cues (maybe noticeable, maybe not). Is the man at fault now for putting her into the situation? No he is not.

As I've stated, women should speak up and not be punished in any way for doing so. The latter part is the man's responsibility. Accept what she says and abide - simple. But the onus is on her to speak up, period. Guy is responsible for #2, Girl is responsible for #3. I don't think we should muddy #2 by saying the onus is on the girl to volunteer a yes instead of the guy asking (not that she couldn't).

 

[ultistar]

Extending on point #3, or maybe it's a 4th, women need to speak up, AND someone has to listen. Right now, most of the institutions are setup against the accuser.
* The HR person will tell the woman, "oh that VP is always flirty, it's not worth going after him".
* the policeman taking the statement will ask, "do you have any proof of aggression".
* the lawyer will advise, "it's going to be a long drawn out battle and he has more money than you"

So there has to be systemic changes in our legal, judicial and criminal system to make is easier for women to be heard.

And agreed 100% with #1, the false accusations based on revenge will F-up this movement.

 

[managee]

I'm going to disagree with you on this. How in the world can we (men) avoid the situation? Abstinence?

Scenario - you are with a girl, she positively consents to sex. At some point during the act, she changes her mind but says nothing but offers non-verbal cues (maybe noticeable, maybe not). Is the man at fault now for putting her into the situation? No he is not.

As I've stated, women should speak up and not be punished in any way for doing so. The latter part is the man's responsibility. Accept what she says and abide - simple. But the onus is on her to speak up, period. Guy is responsible for #2, Girl is responsible for #3. I don't think we should muddy #2 by saying the onus is on the girl to volunteer a yes instead of the guy asking (not that she couldn't).

The situation as you described it is rape. I have a friend that recently took his life in jail after he was convicted of this crime. Everything I read in the court transcripts, and in the story as he described it, was that the sex was consensual (the witness was her best friend who said the woman had been infatuated with my friend for weeks, and gave her a high-five when she left the club with him) until at-some point during the act, it was not, at-which point she didn’t verbalize or drop non-verbal clues about her second thoughts (it turned out that she decided this would harm her relationship with her fiancé)... there’s a bit more to it, but effectively it became her word against his. Bottom-line, she consented, then didn’t and didn’t tell him she’d changed his mind, and the courts found that he should have been aware of this shift, despite minimal nonverbal queues (the sex went from loud to almost silent).

Anyhoot, without shifting societal power dynamics, or guys recognizing and owning inequities in-terms of the balance of power within any type of relationship that borders or crosses the border to a “sexual” one, nonverbal”no’s” are the one we as men need to be the most woke on.

I’m a boss. I have lots of employees. I’m better looking that Weinstein and much less powerful. Flirting with my staff, or manipulating them in any way to consensual sex doesn’t mean I actually got consent. How does she know she can say no without TRULY knowing saying no won’t result in her not getting that promotion or bonus or reference? How does she know I won’t fire or transfer her after being rebuffed.

Knowing that a percentage of claims are false, does she want to go through the embarrassment of being accused of a false claim?

Generally, once the claim has been made, they move the accused or victim away from one another. If you’re working in a great department (or whatever), that in itself is a threat.

Reporting isn’t possible for everyone in all situations always, because of the nature of a society where men for the most part hold the keys to success.

The Gang Buys a Boat episode of It’s Always Sunny really does this idea justice.

 

[sempel]

The situation as you described it is rape. I have a friend that recently took his life in jail after he was convicted of this crime. Everything I read in the court transcripts, and in the story as he described it, was that the sex was consensual (the witness was her best friend who said the woman had been infatuated with my friend for weeks, and gave her a high-five when she left the club with him) until at-some point during the act, it was not, at-which point she didn’t verbalize or drop non-verbal clues about her second thoughts (it turned out that she decided this would harm her relationship with her fiancé)... there’s a bit more to it, but effectively it became her word against his. Bottom-line, she consented, then didn’t and didn’t tell him she’d changed his mind, and the courts found that he should have been aware of this shift, despite minimal nonverbal queues (the sex went from loud to almost silent).

Anyhoot, without shifting societal power dynamics, or guys recognizing and owning inequities in-terms of the balance of power within any type of relationship that borders or crosses the border to a “sexual” one, nonverbal”no’s” are the one we as men need to be the most woke on.

I’m a boss. I have lots of employees. I’m better looking that Weinstein and much less powerful. Flirting with my staff, or manipulating them in any way to consensual sex doesn’t mean I actually got consent. How does she know she can say no without TRULY knowing saying no won’t result in her not getting that promotion or bonus or reference? How does she know I won’t fire or transfer her after being rebuffed.

Knowing that a percentage of claims are false, does she want to go through the embarrassment of being accused of a false claim?

Generally, once the claim has been made, they move the accused or victim away from one another. If you’re working in a great department (or whatever), that in itself is a threat.

Reporting isn’t possible for everyone in all situations always, because of the nature of a society where men for the most part hold the keys to success.

The Gang Buys a Boat episode of It’s Always Sunny really does this idea justice.

I'm sorry about your friend but it sounds like the legal system failed him and made an error. Obviously we don't know the exact details but I think we can all agree it sounds like BS for a guy to be imprisoned for not picking up on supposed non-verbal cues (going from loud to silent?).

I'm not saying a guy who is told no midway should continue, stating that she said yes before. Women are definitely allowed to change their minds (as are guys). But it doesn't sit well with me that a woman who doesn't verbalize or make it CRYSTAL CLEAR in some other way that she wants to stop can turn it into a rape charge. At what point is a person accountable for his or her own choices/actions? And since the woman in your story had already started engaging, it's nonsensical to think she hasn't already crossed the line. Don't know who the judge/jury was but they were wrong.

Hopefully karma's takes care of the woman because she's clearly a horrible person.

 

[managee]

I'm sorry about your friend but it sounds like the legal system failed him and made an error. Obviously we don't know the exact details but I think we can all agree it sounds like BS for a guy to be imprisoned for not picking up on supposed non-verbal cues (going from loud to silent?).

I'm not saying a guy who is told no midway should continue, stating that she said yes before. Women are definitely allowed to change their minds (as are guys). But it doesn't sit well with me that a woman who doesn't verbalize or make it CRYSTAL CLEAR in some other way that she wants to stop can turn it into a rape charge. At what point is a person accountable for his or her own choices/actions? And since the woman in your story had already started engaging, it's nonsensical to think she hasn't already crossed the line. Don't know who the judge/jury was but they were wrong.

Hopefully karma's takes care of the woman because she's clearly a horrible person.

She’s indeed a bad person, but regardless, the rest of that post focuses on the fact that #3 isn’t always possible, so we as guys need to not put women in our lives in these situations in the first place if we’re truly looking to solve this.

 

[sempel]

She’s indeed a bad person, but regardless, the rest of that post focuses on the fact that #3 isn’t always possible, so we as guys need to not put women in our lives in these situations in the first place if we’re truly looking to solve this.

But given that you have actually provided an example where the guy (other than making a bad choice in choosing this woman) did nothing wrong, I think this is unrealistic. We can all be gentleman, we call all be respectful, we can all ask at different intervals during the act if it's all good. But if the lady offers little/nothing as far as a response but EXPECTS a guy to know her mind has changed doesn't make sense. I don't know what happened in your friend's trial but the lady loses all credibility when being questioned

1) Did you change your mind? Yes
2) Did you say something? No
3) Did you do something that was fairly obvious to make him realize you changed your mind? No
4) So how would he know you changed your mind? ...............

One of the biggest issues (sorry to sidetrack) is that prosecutors are overzealous when it's clear no crime has been committed but they want a conviction. This includes offering deals to innocent people who take them knowing they are innocent but being found guilty in court could result in a far worse sentence. This case should never have made it to court IMHO.

So when it comes to #3, it's 100% on the women to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR and OBVIOUS. Verbal cues are the best idea so FFS just use them. If you feel uncomfortable, pull away, push off, do something to be clear. Hell bite the guy on the arm or leg. I'm sure the shock will cause him to pause momentarily.