When not to believe what police are telling you...

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alexmst

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By Rebecca Camber
Last updated at 12:33 AM on 23rd September 2010

A barrister was repeatedly reassured by police that ‘no-one is going to die today’ – before being gunned down in a volley of bullets by seven armed officers, an inquest heard yesterday.

Mark Saunders was told ‘no-one is going to hurt you’ by negotiators during a five-hour siege which started when the drunk Oxford graduate opened fire on his neighbours’ homes with his shotgun.

But he died in a hail of bullets when he aimed the gun from the kitchen window of the £2.2million Chelsea house.

They insisted ‘no-one is going to die today’, told him he was ‘a gentleman’ just having a ‘bad day’ and tried to lure him out of the house with the offer of speaking to his wife – but only if he surrendered first.

His widow Elizabeth, 42, also a London barrister, fled Westminster Coroner’s Court in tears before the footage showing marksmen opening fire on her distressed husband was shown.

In his final minutes, Mr Saunders, an alcoholic, was seen swaying unsteadily, waving his legally-held shotgun in the air.

As police negotiators using a loudhailer desperately pleaded with him to put the gun down, he lurched forward, his head rolling from side to side.

Then he slowly lowered the gun to hip level, pointing the barrel in the direction of officers.
Suddenly without warning, there was an explosion of gunfire as seven marksmen, believing he was going to shoot, blasted him with a volley of bullets in the head and chest, causing fatal injuries.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lawyer-shot-seven-marksmen.html#ixzz10JoPqYkr
 
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alexmst

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Not blaming the police for lying to him. If one is drunk and firing a shotgun at one's neighbours' homes...:rolleyes:
 
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alexmst

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Mervyn said:
Why did you underline this ?
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Just saying, he had a permit to own it - it wasn't an illegal gun. Also underlined because, when one is surrounded by a SWAT team, waving a loaded shotgun around (after having fired it randomly at neighbours' houses) isn't a wise move if one doesn't want to be shot.
 
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Rockslinger

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Based on the facts as described, it seems the shooting was just cause.

However, I recall another incident where a couple of female family members called the police because one of their male family members was in an agitated state and waving a knife ( or was it a hammer?). Instead of leaving the house and allowing time for their male family member to calm down, they called the police. REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU CALL THE POLICE, YOU LOSE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. Long story short, the male family member was shot dead because he was waving a dangerous weapon.
 
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alexmst

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Rockslinger said:
Based on the facts as described, it seems the shooting was just cause.

However, I recall another incident where a couple of female family members called the police because one of their male family members was in an agitated state and waving a knife ( or was it a hammer?). Instead of leaving the house and allowing time for their male family member to calm down, they called the police. REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU CALL THE POLICE, YOU LOSE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. Long story short, the male family member was shot dead because he was waving a dangerous weapon.
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OK, but in this case it was the neighbours whose houses were being shot up who called the police on him. The shooter was home alone at the time firing out his window randomly.
 
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Mervyn

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alexmst said:
Just saying, he had a permit to own it - it wasn't an illegal gun. Also underlined because, when one is surrounded by a SWAT team, waving a loaded shotgun around (after having fired it randomly at neighbours' houses) isn't a wise move if one doesn't want to be shot.
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He was suicidal, maybe he wanted to be shot.
 
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alexmst

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Mervyn said:
He was suicidal, maybe he wanted to be shot.
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Maybe.

If one is surrounded by a SWAT team pointing their guns at you from every direction, and you have a shotgun in hand, if one doesn't want to get shot it would be a good idea to put it down. Waving it in the air and then levelling it at police is not the best way to avoid getting shot. Of course, maybe he wanted them to shoot him as he wanted to die but didn't have the guts to pull the trigger on himself so wanted death by cop. Don't know.
 
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larry

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This is the part I would underline "Suddenly without warning" After a 5 hour siege, should the police shout "OK, now we really mean it"? I wonder about the adgenda of the journalist. Could be anti-cop? huh?
 
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Mister K

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Not sure of the politics of the newspaper or the journalist. Article was definitely slanted to imply that the police had done something wrong.

It is a standard negotiating tactic by SWAT/SRT/SRU (call them what you will) to assure everyone involved that "No one is going to die today" and given the screening and training that one must go through to become a member of these elite units (The TV show Flashpoint is actually a pretty fair representation of the manner in which these units operate) I honestly believe that that is what they are trying to achieve.

Given the protocols and the amount of paperwork and hassle involved when anyone is shot and/or killed by a police officer, I believe that no one in those positions is "trigger happy" or looking to shoot someone just because they can.

The most difficult situations for police to deal with are domestic and hostage-type situations because those involved are often emotional and out of control.

If someone is waving a weapon around, be it a firearm, knife or even a club, they represent a threat to the public, the police and themselves. Sometimes the only way to resolve the situation without causing further injury to others is to kill the individual. This was supposed to be the reason that stun guns were originally employed, however we know now that the stun gun is not 100% effective and can result in the accidental and unintended death of a suspect.
 
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Ironhead

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mandrill

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Police are not blameworthy. He emerged from the house brandishing a firearm. He was instructed to lay it down - OF COURSE!!!!!!

He refused to do this and levelled it at the police. They defended themselves with deadly force, as they are entitled to do.

Case closed.
 
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HetroGuy

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oagre said:
Police are not blameworthy. He emerged from the house brandishing a firearm. He was instructed to lay it down - OF COURSE!!!!!!

He refused to do this and levelled it at the police. They defended themselves with deadly force, as they are entitled to do.

Case closed.
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Agreed. This is really a dumb article and would only make sense if he threw his gun on the ground, walked out hands over his head and then they shot him. For those who are slow on the uptake - after the cops promised not to shoot him he walked out of the house and started to shoot the cops at point blank range - are they just going to watch because they promised not to shoot him ? Really, really dumb article.
 
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Cassini

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Many British cops do not carry guns. When you meet the cops that do, drop whatever you are doing and just listen to them. The heavily armed Special Branch teams are very lethal.

alexmst said:
Suddenly without warning, there was an explosion of gunfire as seven marksmen, believing he was going to shoot, blasted him with a volley of bullets in the head and chest, causing fatal injuries.
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All the marksmen fired simultaneously, and aimed for both the head and chest - ensuring kill shots. The team that fired was trained to take out terrorists wearing body armour.

Don't mess with British cops carrying guns.
 
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red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
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he should have registered with the long gun registry. he would be alive today
 
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Aardvark154

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oagre said:
Police are not blameworthy. He emerged from the house brandishing a firearm. He was instructed to lay it down - OF COURSE!!!!!!

He refused to do this and levelled it at the police. They defended themselves with deadly force, as they are entitled to do.

Case closed.
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Exactly.

This is a tragic case, but what were the police marksmen supposed to do, wait to see if he really decided to shoot the constables the shotgun was pointed towards.

If any of us were the neighbors would we want the police to spend days just letting him fire out the windows.
 
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papasmerf

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a thinly veiled attempt to insight anti-police propaganda.


Hardly qualifies as dislike speech. Let alone hate speech.

Makes me happy to support LE when it comes to morons and most things they do.
 
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capncrunch

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The police acted in an appropriate manner in this case.

There are cases when they - the police - are totally out of line. Taser use when not appropriate is probably one of the biggies. And the arrest of totally innocent people at this year's G-20 summit in Toronto is another.

But in this particular case, the police really didn't have much choice, and if pressed I'd have to side with the cops on this one.
 
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