WTF is wrong with our laws......

[Mia.Colpa]

I don't know if I have all the facts, I'm sure some of you will help me out here, lol, but this is what I know:
-owner of a store was robbed of some plants
- owner checked video surveillance and has the culprit on video
- culprit returns to the store about an hour later and store owner chases the culprit as he tries to get away, captures him, ties him up, puts him in the back of a truck until police arrives.

Now, this store owner has been charged for assault, forcible confinement, carrying a concealed weapon and kidnapping. The judge threw out the concealed weapon and kiddnapping charges but said he will go to trial for assault and forcible confinement. WTF? And to add salt to the wound, the culprit is going to testify against him and he may face a maximum of two years in jail!!!!! The culprit only got 30 days and he's out, if not soon.

This is what happened to a Toronto grocer, David Chen.

Am I missing something here? Are our laws better suited for crooks than the law abiding citizen? This sounds so bizarre.

Ok, your turn, lol.

 

[Yoga Face]

I agree with the judge

The store owner was in no danger and was not being robbed at that point in time


You cannot take the law into your own hands

You cannot tie someone up because you think they committed an offence


You cannot hit someone who hit you yesterday out of revenge either

 

[wangbang]

In general, I agree with you. It just seems wrong.

One thing I heard yesterday for the first time was that they didn't grab the guy until an hour after the fact. The comment I heard was that a citizen arrest has to occur at the time of the incident. After grabbing him did they call the cops right away or did they rough him up for awhile first?

 

[Yoga Face]

In general, I agree with you. It just seems wrong.

One thing I heard yesterday for the first time was that they didn't grab the guy until an hour after the fact. The comment I heard was that a citizen arrest has to occur at the time of the incident. After grabbing him did they call the cops right away or did they rough him up for awhile first?

A citizens arrest does not allow you to tie up someone does it?

 

[tboy]

I agree with the judge

The store owner was in no danger and was not being robbed at that point in time


You cannot take the law into your own hands

You cannot tie someone up because you think they committed an offence


You cannot hit someone who hit you yesterday out of revenge either

And the OP wonders why our legal system is so Fucked up with responses like this?

Yes, you CAN take the law into your own hands to protect yourself or your property.

While you cannot tie someone up you can detain them until police arrive. The shop owner didn't "think" they committed an offence, he had PROOF.

Yes, you cannot hit someone the next day but you certainly can detain or capture them until police arrive.

I don't know the whole story but from the sounds of it, the shopkeeper went a little overboard in his detention of the perp.

I once had some punks sitting on the hood of my brand new car. I chased them off. I then got worried that they might come back and trash the car so I called the police and asked what I could do.

The cop said: You can defend your property, and if you catch them in the act you can detain them. Just don't break their legs or anything. But call us immediately.

Now I wonder, how long did the shopkeeper have this guy tied up in the back of a van? Was he roughed up? etc etc.

No story is cut and dried but I have to side with the shopkeeper as long as he didn't overdo it.....

 

[Yoga Face]

He did not have proof he had evidence


How does one detain a citizens arrest ? Either they stay or they do not ??

Can you forcibly detain them ? Sounds like trouble to me

 

[tboy]

He did not have proof he had evidence


How does one detain a citizens arrest ? Either they stay or they do not ??

Can you forcibly detain them ? Sounds like trouble to me

Sorry, a video of the perp in the act is P R O O F.

Yes, proof/evidence another example of how legalese is ruining what used to be a JUSTICE system. Evidence is if you find an article of clothing that belonged to the perp (like Cinderella's glass slipper) Proof is a photo or video of the person committing the offence or catching them in the act.

For eg: You hear your car window breaking. You go outside and grab the person as they are swinging the bat to do another window. That is proof. The evidence is the broken window and glass on the person, fingerprints on the bat etc.

 

[Yoga Face]

Yes, you can forcibly detain them, done this countless times at work when holding shoplifters for police, you just can't rough them up.

What if they are willing to use violence to leave can you jump on them ?

What if it turns out they committed no crime are not you liable for a lawsuit and counter charges like forcible confinement ?

 

[Malibook]

Did the lowlife crook require any medical attention?
If not, fuck him and let the shop owner go with a warning.

I don't think the Crown will find a jury of his peers that will convict him unless there is a medical report outlining the asshole's injuries, if he even had any.

I highly doubt this thief would have faced justice if not for the shop owner and as long as he did not go overboard and beat the guy he should be commended.

 

[moresex4me]

This whole story is bullshit. The guy stole plants, did it a lot. Came back later that same day but was chased and apprehended before he could steal more. He was well known in the area for doing this. Why is the Crown is prosecuting the store owner? I have no idea. To make matters worse, they plea-bargained the perp in exchange for his testimony against the store owner. WTF? This is totally backwards.

If the store owner had waited until he actually tried to steal another plant, he would have been fine. They're going after him because he didn't wait. Total bullshit.

http://www.thestar.com/searchresults?AssetType=article&stype=genSearch&q=david%20chen&r=all:1

 

[Yoga Face]

If the store owner had waited until he actually tried to steal another plant, he would have been fine. They're going after him because he didn't wait. Total bullshit.

But he was not commiting a crime at this point nor was the store owner in danger

No, you cannot take someone down because you think they may do something but I agree the judge should use discretion in this case and let him off easy

 

[justchecking]

This is straight out from the electronic verison of the Criminal Code of Canada regarding citizen arrest.....


Arrest without Warrant and Release from Custody
Arrest without warrant by any person

494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or
(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and

(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

Arrest by owner, etc., of property

(2) Any one who is

(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property,
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.
Delivery to peace officer

(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 449; R.S., c. 2(2nd Supp.), s. 5.

 

[Yoga Face]

a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes
has committed a criminal offence

So what did the store owner do wrong here ?

 

[fuji]

The comment I heard was that a citizen arrest has to occur at the time of the incident.

Bingo. The power of citizens arrest allows you to stop a crime that is in progress, prevent a crime, and so on. It does not entitle you to pin a "deputy dodge" badge on and go around hunting down people you suspect are criminals.

Leave the police work to the police.

 

[fuji]

A citizens arrest does not allow you to tie up someone does it?

Yes it does, if that level of force is necessary to restrain the person. The problem in this particular case is that they were playing detective, "arresting" someone for a crime they believed that individual committed in the past. To carry out a citizens arrest you have to catch the person "red handed".

So if you and your buddy saw some dude assaulting a woman right in front of you you could intervene, restrain the guy, and wait for the police to arrive. If the guy struggled and the only way to restrain him was to tie him up so be it.

Minimum force necessary, but it may well be that the minimum force necessary is to tie him up--or worse.

 

[fuji]

Sorry, a video of the perp in the act is P R O O F.

No it isn't. Who says the guy in the video is the same as the guy you just arrested? They may look similar to you, but you might be wrong. It is evidence.

You can only carry a citizens arrest out when you catch someone in the act of committing a crime: You see them doing it, there is no case for mistaken identity becaue there they are right in front of your eyes committing a crime.

Tracking someone down after the fact, lying in wait for them somehwere, etc., is police work and citizens are not authorized to do that.

On the other hand when you DO catch someone red handed you are entiteld to use the minimum force necessary, and in some cases, that may be a whole lot of force.

For eg: You hear your car window breaking. You go outside and grab the person as they are swinging the bat to do another window. That is proof. The evidence is the broken window and glass on the person, fingerprints on the bat etc.

No it isn't proof. Maybe their friend broke he first window and has run away. Certainly though you have caught them in the act of breaking the 2nd window and could arrest them for the second incident.

 

[Ironhead]

Found this National Post article with video.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...tore-employees-beat-suspected-shoplifter.aspx




Support David Chen ?
Sign the petition.

http://canadianexexpat.blogspot.com/2009/06/support-david-chen.html

 

[fuji]

What if they are willing to use violence to leave can you jump on them ?

Yes absolutely. You can use the minimum force necessary to detain them for the police. If they start using force against you, legally, you are entitled to escalate and use even more force, to make sure they stay there.

That is the legal situation. Practically speaking you should worry about your own safety and judge whether perhaps you would be better of letting them go than put your life at risk by getting into a seriously violent confrontation with a criminal. If you are SURE you have overwhelming force, and it's a serious enough crime, you're entitled to take *whatever* action is necessary to keep them there until the police arrives--providing it is reasonably the minimum level of force that would have worked.

So you cannot tie up someone who is passively waiting with you for the police, for example, but you could tie up someone who is fighting and struggling with you.

What if it turns out they committed no crime are not you liable for a lawsuit and counter charges like forcible confinement ?

You absolutely are liable. You better be sure they were committing a crime. So if you merely think they might have but you aren't sure then call the police but don't arrest.

Sometimes it is crystal clear: If you witness a guy punching a cowering woman in the face you can be pretty sure that's a crime.

 

[moresex4me]

The guy in this case was known to the owner. He frequents the neighbourhood stealing from shopkeepers. The law is stupid in this case. What if you saw someone about to commit an assault? You can't stop them until they actually do it?

 

[fuji]

The guy in this case was known to the owner. He frequents the neighbourhood stealing from shopkeepers. The law is stupid in this case. What if you saw someone about to commit an assault? You can't stop them until they actually do it?

If he was known to the owner then the owner ought to be able to help the police catch him. End of story.

What the owner COULD do is watch this guy very carefully, hide somewhere, and catch him right in the act of stealing. If he had done that, he would not have been charged.