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Poll: Who gets your vote

If a federal election were held tomorrow who would get your vote

  • Pierre Pollievre's Conservative Party

    Votes: 41 67.2%
  • Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party

    Votes: 13 21.3%
  • Jagmeet Singh's New Democratic Party

    Votes: 5 8.2%
  • Elizabeth May's Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maxime Bernier's People's Party

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
28,784
6,789
113
There's no "either way you look at it"...your math was wrong.

Bike lanes work better where there is more density and smaller land area...like Amsterdam.
Toronto doesn't fit that description as I've said from the beginning. Just because bike lanes work in one place doesn't mean they work everywhere. In Toronto, they've made traffic worse.
The bike lanes would work better if there is less of a population and fewer cars on the streets. The fact is that more residents use the Public Transport in cities like Amsterdam and London.
In fact in London they even charge a daily toll for driving into their city centres with cars. Of course bicycles do not incur such charges. London like Amsterdam has a much better transport system and you do not need a cart travel back and forth from the city centre!!
 
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Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
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Would have, Could have does not contradict the fact that you were the first one to state that Amsterdam has a lower population density than Toronto, and then posted a link to dispute it!!
The link I posted didn't dispute it...I'm the one who showed you the population densities.
Why would I dispute it?
You didn't provide anything.
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
The bike lanes would work better if there is less of a population and fewer cars on the streets. The fact is that more residents use the Public Transport in cities like Amsterdam and London.
In fact in London they even charge a daily toll for driving into their city centres with cars. Of course bicycles do not incur such charges. London like Amsterdam has a much better transport system and you do not need a cart travel back and forth from the city centre!!
Those cities were built, designed and evolved into what they are long before Toronto. Toronto developed into what it is now. You can't just try and mimic other cities that are different in nature. That's the problem with our council who take free trips abroad to "study" places that are different and then try and make changes in Toronto that obviously don't work.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
28,784
6,789
113
Hundreds of thousands use it on a daily basis. That's not "under utilized". That's using it for the intended purpose.

Maybe if there wasn't perpetual construction on the 401 it would move along faster. Maybe if the 401 was designed with less bottlenecks it would move along faster.

That doesn't mean the 407ETR is under utilized...it means the 401 has a lot of issues.
If the 401 has Express as well as collector lanes that are a bottle neck while 407ETR has far fewer lanes, what does that tell you?

The 407ETR barely has any cars outside of the rush hours, while the 401 keeps on running at snails pace in the vicinity of Yonge Street and Uptown.
But I showed you the facts that you just cannot accept!!
 
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bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
28,784
6,789
113
The link I posted didn't dispute it...I'm the one who showed you the population densities.
Why would I dispute it?
You didn't provide anything.
You showed the population densities which contradicted what you stated to Frankfooter in the first place!!
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
21,654
113
There's no "either way you look at it"...your math was wrong.

Bike lanes work better where there is more density and smaller land area...like Amsterdam.
Toronto doesn't fit that description as I've said from the beginning. Just because bike lanes work in one place doesn't mean they work everywhere. In Toronto, they've made traffic worse.
In the burbs where you are.

In the city bikes are the fastest and best way around town.
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
In the burbs where you are.

In the city bikes are the fastest and best way around town.
I don't see many cyclists coming in from within the borders of the city to downtown yet bike lanes are there and only serve a select few yet take away lanes for vehicles.
Useless.
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
If the 401 has Express as well as collector lanes that are a bottle neck while 407ETR has far fewer lanes, what does that tell you?

The 407ETR barely has any cars outside of the rush hours, while the 401 keeps on running at snails pace in the vicinity of Yonge Street and Uptown.
But I showed you the facts that you just cannot accept!!
It tells me the 401 is flawed and continual construction to fix those flaws causes congestion. Usage of the 407ETR has increased year over year.

If you are not afraid of facts, you should read this study.

The use of Highway 407 ETR has steadily increased since 1999, and the highway averaged 413,000 weekday trips in 2017. This represents 50% more trips on the average weekday than on the GO Transit system’s entire network (buses and trains) (Metrolinx, 2018). The total vehicle kilometres travelled (VKT) on Highway 407 ETR in 2017 amounted to 2.6 billion
https://beta.cancea.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Economic-Impacts-of-Highway-407-ETR.pdf
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
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113
It tells me the 401 is flawed and continual construction to fix those flaws causes congestion. Usage of the 407ETR has increased year over year.

If you are not afraid of facts, you should read this study.

The use of Highway 407 ETR has steadily increased since 1999, and the highway averaged 413,000 weekday trips in 2017. This represents 50% more trips on the average weekday than on the GO Transit system’s entire network (buses and trains) (Metrolinx, 2018). The total vehicle kilometres travelled (VKT) on Highway 407 ETR in 2017 amounted to 2.6 billion
https://beta.cancea.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Economic-Impacts-of-Highway-407-ETR.pdf
Its very entertaining that you use a trip counter to discuss the 407 vs GO.
How many people do you think are on each GO train that counts as 1 trip on that stat, skoob?
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
28,784
6,789
113
It tells me the 401 is flawed and continual construction to fix those flaws causes congestion. Usage of the 407ETR has increased year over year.

If you are not afraid of facts, you should read this study.

The use of Highway 407 ETR has steadily increased since 1999, and the highway averaged 413,000 weekday trips in 2017. This represents 50% more trips on the average weekday than on the GO Transit system’s entire network (buses and trains) (Metrolinx, 2018). The total vehicle kilometres travelled (VKT) on Highway 407 ETR in 2017 amounted to 2.6 billion
https://beta.cancea.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Economic-Impacts-of-Highway-407-ETR.pdf
Listen skoobie, that is a flawed Statistic of yours. There is a sizeable population who live North of the City and outside of the GTA that have to travel say from the East End to The Brampton or The Airport Area. It makes zero sense to go South just to catch the Go Train to Union Station and then The Subway all the way to Brampton. To Union station from Oshawa will take you almost an hour!!

Now looking at that Chart of the growth of Personal vs Business Travel Figure 4. Personal travel is just around less than 20% growth from 2003 to 2017.
On the other hand the Business travel has grown by close to 90%. Moreover, a number of personal travels are reimbursed by businesses. The 407ETR though paid by the taxpayers once again is designated to serve mainly the elitists and the businesses. Most middle class families avoid it unless it is essential or critical!!
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
Its very entertaining that you use a trip counter to discuss the 407 vs GO.
How many people do you think are on each GO train that counts as 1 trip on that stat, skoob?
What argument are trying to distract with now?
My argument is that the 407ETR is not under-utilized.

Oh right...it's a highway outside of downtown Toronto that doesn't exist. Gotcha.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
21,654
113
What argument are trying to distract with now?
My argument is that the 407ETR is not under-utilized.

Oh right...it's a highway outside of downtown Toronto that doesn't exist. Gotcha.
Why would you make such a stupid argument?
Oh right, because otherwise you'd have to admit the NDP have a smart idea.
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
Listen skoobie, that is a flawed Statistic of yours. There is a sizeable population who live North of the City and outside of the GTA that have to travel say from the East End to The Brampton or The Airport Area. It makes zero sense to go South just to catch the Go Train to Union Station and then The Subway all the way to Brampton. To Union station from Oshawa will take you almost an hour!!

Now looking at that Chart of the growth of Personal vs Business Travel Figure 4. Personal travel is just around less than 20% growth from 2003 to 2017.
On the other hand the Business travel has grown by close to 90%. Moreover, a number of personal travels are reimbursed by businesses. The 407ETR though paid by the taxpayers once again is designated to serve mainly the elitists and the businesses. Most middle class families avoid it unless it is essential or critical!!
According to your pal Frankfooter, what happens outside of downtown Toronto doesn't matter and doesn't really count. So you should chat with him about that.

If it wasn't for businesses, you wouldn't have taxpayers. I wouldn't call business owners elitists. I would call them providers.

The topic was about your comment that the 407ETR is "under-utilized". The data says otherwise.

You want to talk about businesses and travel expenses...start another thread.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
21,654
113
According to your pal Frankfooter, what happens outside of downtown Toronto doesn't matter and doesn't really count. So you should chat with him about that.

If it wasn't for businesses, you wouldn't have taxpayers. I wouldn't call business owners elitists. I would call them providers.

The topic was about your comment that the 407ETR is "under-utilized". The data says otherwise.

You want to talk about businesses and travel expenses...start another thread.
Well, should we listen to your opinion or should we listen to a group that did actual research and understand the issues?
Such a tough choice.

A new report has been released entitled The Freight Escape: How to Get Trucks Off the 401 Without Blowing a Hole in the Greenbelt.
This report was commissioned by Environmental Defence with input from Transport Action Ontario and you can access this report here.
The report finds that subsidizing the toll on the 407 ETR is cheaper, easier, and better for the trucking industry than building the proposed Highway 413. It also shows that moving trucks from Highway 401 to the 407 will alleviate congestion for all road users and reduce journey times for truck drivers. This would also make building the proposed Highway 413 unnecessary, save taxpayers at least $6 billion (based on 2018 estimates), and conserve valuable natural spaces including 2000 acres of farmland and 400 acres of Greenbelt.
The Freight Escape report finds that moving trucks to the 407 will:

 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
21,654
113
It's not a stupid argument...the NDP are stupid.
Hope that helps.
Yes, it identifies where the stupidity in this argument lies.
And its not with the party that researched the issue and came up with a detailed plan.
 

Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
6,269
3,312
113
Well, should we listen to your opinion or should we listen to a group that did actual research and understand the issues?
Such a tough choice.

A new report has been released entitled The Freight Escape: How to Get Trucks Off the 401 Without Blowing a Hole in the Greenbelt.
This report was commissioned by Environmental Defence with input from Transport Action Ontario and you can access this report here.
The report finds that subsidizing the toll on the 407 ETR is cheaper, easier, and better for the trucking industry than building the proposed Highway 413. It also shows that moving trucks from Highway 401 to the 407 will alleviate congestion for all road users and reduce journey times for truck drivers. This would also make building the proposed Highway 413 unnecessary, save taxpayers at least $6 billion (based on 2018 estimates), and conserve valuable natural spaces including 2000 acres of farmland and 400 acres of Greenbelt.
The Freight Escape report finds that moving trucks to the 407 will:

Tell me...who is going to "subsidize" this stupid plan?
Assuming the answer is taxpayers.
NDP...always spending other people's money.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
90,276
21,654
113
Tell me...who is going to "subsidize" this stupid plan?
Assuming the answer is taxpayers.
NDP...always spending other people's money.
Its cheaper than DoFo's highway 413.

Right wingers just aren't good with economics, money or numbers in general.
 
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