B
You're showing your ignorance. You must be 18 in order to serve alcohol in this province.
She must be a bright, organized young lady, to be able to be a successful server. I wish her the best.
There are many other things she could do, but I'll let her figure them out.
Tip what you want to tip? You mean the current system that I've pointed out that exists? Glad you pointed that out Mr. Obvious.
Great! The 'Grumpy Old Men' have reached an agreement. Are you trying to say that prior to CapitalGuy telling you this, you didn't know?
BTW, big night last night. Great $$$.
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burt-oh-my!
Congrats on the big night, I guess you asked a few customers if they were going to the game. That alone must of been worth a couple of hundred bucks right there.
As for me being grumpy - not at all! I am happy you made lots of money, and even happier that I didn't give it to you!
Cheers.
As for me being grumpy - not at all! I am happy you made lots of money, and even happier that I didn't give it to you!
Cheers.
This is exactly what the big issue is. If tipping was outlawed, the price of food/drink would go up considerably. It would cost you the same to dine out (adding 20% to what you pay now), but your service will most likely be horrible. Servers will make $15 an hour (far less than they made before when they were tipped) and will hate their job and not care about the level of service they are giving. We work hard to make that money and the better you tip the better you will be treated next time you are in. If you want to go to a nice sit down restaurant and get the same level of service that you get at McDonalds, then let's outlaw tipping. Somehow, I think most of you guys that hate tipping can at least agree with these points that I just made.
Why is tipping 15% the standard? TO MAKE THE JOB/RESTAURANT VIABLE....
Not all the servers work all day everyday. MANY are only there for the busy hours because it wouldn't make sense, nor would it be profitable for the business to keep all their servers there throughout the entire day. I worked at one very busy restaurant where the rush would require approx. 14 people, but the down times you could get by on 4 or less. Having all 14 people working all day wouldn't make sense, nor would it be a sustainable business model. I'm pretty sure any of you can agree with that.
That means a lot of servers are only there for the rush, 3-4 hours max. Not everyone makes $200 tables/ hour. Lets assume someone makes $100table/hour, over a short 3 hour shift. + their $8.90 (- income tax and deductions, probably around 8) and 3.5% house take that we've been using. so @ 15% tip that server made $24 wage + $45 tip - $10.50 = $58.50 for an entire shift. @10% tip you just subtract $15, meaning they only make $43.50. 43.5/58.5 = ~74% So while it may only be 5% to you, its a ~25decreas/33increase% difference in income for the server.
Is it really worth while to come in for a shift or keep a job that pays 43.50 a few times a week? Probably not. You need to consider that you have to take out time required to travel to and from work, parking maybe, the cost of travel.
Should restaurant owners incorporate this cost into the cost of the food? Lets say the industry decides to go that way and that the standard 'tip/increase in wage' as a % of the bill becomes 12.5%. That means the cost of the dish would go up by approx 25% for you to cover the costs of the taxes deducted from the server, + the increase contributions required of the restaurant. That also mean the customer is out another 10-15% over what they were paying. People will most likely eat out much less as a result, the restaurant will suffer, and servers will lose their jobs. It's a lose/lose/lose situation for everyone in that scenario.
Not all the servers work all day everyday. MANY are only there for the busy hours because it wouldn't make sense, nor would it be profitable for the business to keep all their servers there throughout the entire day. I worked at one very busy restaurant where the rush would require approx. 14 people, but the down times you could get by on 4 or less. Having all 14 people working all day wouldn't make sense, nor would it be a sustainable business model. I'm pretty sure any of you can agree with that.
That means a lot of servers are only there for the rush, 3-4 hours max. Not everyone makes $200 tables/ hour. Lets assume someone makes $100table/hour, over a short 3 hour shift. + their $8.90 (- income tax and deductions, probably around 8) and 3.5% house take that we've been using. so @ 15% tip that server made $24 wage + $45 tip - $10.50 = $58.50 for an entire shift. @10% tip you just subtract $15, meaning they only make $43.50. 43.5/58.5 = ~74% So while it may only be 5% to you, its a ~25decreas/33increase% difference in income for the server.
Is it really worth while to come in for a shift or keep a job that pays 43.50 a few times a week? Probably not. You need to consider that you have to take out time required to travel to and from work, parking maybe, the cost of travel.
Should restaurant owners incorporate this cost into the cost of the food? Lets say the industry decides to go that way and that the standard 'tip/increase in wage' as a % of the bill becomes 12.5%. That means the cost of the dish would go up by approx 25% for you to cover the costs of the taxes deducted from the server, + the increase contributions required of the restaurant. That also mean the customer is out another 10-15% over what they were paying. People will most likely eat out much less as a result, the restaurant will suffer, and servers will lose their jobs. It's a lose/lose/lose situation for everyone in that scenario.
I have one question for all of you out there. How many of you truly have a passion for the work you do? How many of you LOVE your job and never have a day that you dread going in to work? How many of you feel that you make enough money for the amount of work that you do in a day? These are questions that everyone should ask themselves when choosing a career.
I have worked in many different fields including finance and IT, but the only job I've ever had a love and passion for was the restaurant business. I love fine food. I love wine, spirits and beer. I have a knowledge of these things and I learn about new things every day at work. I know a lot of you feel that my profession is very low brow and is not worth the $$$ that I make, but honestly this is what I was meant to do for a living and I'm very happy to have figured that out. Many people never find out what they want to do with their lives and end up in a shitty job that they hate.
I'll leave you with one last question: have you ever had an over the top, unreal, amazing experience at a restaurant? If so, try to imagine that experience. That is the level of service that I strive to give every single day at work. This is why I feel justified in the amount of $$$ that I make. Thank you
I have worked in many different fields including finance and IT, but the only job I've ever had a love and passion for was the restaurant business. I love fine food. I love wine, spirits and beer. I have a knowledge of these things and I learn about new things every day at work. I know a lot of you feel that my profession is very low brow and is not worth the $$$ that I make, but honestly this is what I was meant to do for a living and I'm very happy to have figured that out. Many people never find out what they want to do with their lives and end up in a shitty job that they hate.
I'll leave you with one last question: have you ever had an over the top, unreal, amazing experience at a restaurant? If so, try to imagine that experience. That is the level of service that I strive to give every single day at work. This is why I feel justified in the amount of $$$ that I make. Thank you
Well said Furo.
I worked in restaurants for 10+ years. I learned that it really takes a special kind of person to endure the job. It makes a lot of good people very angry/bitter, and its the fault of the customers. It's not the poor tips that really make people angry, its the way we're treated. It's the way we're talked down to/ignored/yelled at for no good reason. While we may be doing a 'low skill' job, we're still people. Many of us are working towards better educations and other jobs. So while you may think we're not very smart, many are working towards being doctors, lawyers, entrepeneurs. The very good servers are also networking while at work, make connections for later in life. Believe it or not, servers may be some of the best connections you could ever make because we deal with people from ALL walks of life on a daily basis.
While my business interests have moved away from the restaurant industry, I still really enjoyed the time I was in it, and the friends that i've made.
I worked in restaurants for 10+ years. I learned that it really takes a special kind of person to endure the job. It makes a lot of good people very angry/bitter, and its the fault of the customers. It's not the poor tips that really make people angry, its the way we're treated. It's the way we're talked down to/ignored/yelled at for no good reason. While we may be doing a 'low skill' job, we're still people. Many of us are working towards better educations and other jobs. So while you may think we're not very smart, many are working towards being doctors, lawyers, entrepeneurs. The very good servers are also networking while at work, make connections for later in life. Believe it or not, servers may be some of the best connections you could ever make because we deal with people from ALL walks of life on a daily basis.
While my business interests have moved away from the restaurant industry, I still really enjoyed the time I was in it, and the friends that i've made.
Excellent post.
That is the same sort of passion that I had for serving.
Let the ignorant and haters bleat on.
B
burt-oh-my!
Well that's nice to know.
How much do you tip the grocery store cashier? The convenience store clerk? The warehouser labourer?
They're not considered tipped employees. I don't know how the law works in Canada, but in the US employers are not required to pay the full minimum wage to employees receiving tips, such as waiters. The amount varies by state by can be 30% or even quite a bit lower than the minumun wage for everyone else. If it turns out that the employee's wage plus tips was at least the minimum, the employer is off the hook. If it wasn't the employer makes up the difference. All this winds up costing the same on way or another. The only person that get's a free ride in all this is people like you who's stinginess has to be made up by other patrons.
Not at all.
In English terms, I am making a statement, not a demand.
I would have made another career choice.
Obviously burt-oh-my's reading comprehension skills lack; or he just responds to parts of sentences that he likes, effectively making statements out of context. The above listed jobs pay a higher wage (Been said before). None of them require the customer service skills that serving does (Said too). Many of them enjoy benefits that waiter's don't (I mentioned this). They also receive raises, whereas a waiter under the same circumstances and in the same restaurant over many years will likely see his/her income remain static (Eluded to this as well).
Burt, I've asked multiple times, what is it that you do for a living that makes you feel as if you can look down upon someone else's job/career (I'm sure you think it is none of my business, but youseem fine bashing someone else while keeping your job to yourself)? If you are so against it, why not just inform your server that you will not be tipping them at the beginning of the meal so that both sides are clear. I'm sure you'll get 'A' meal at some point (Said this many times with no reply).
BTW, notice how in post #148 RemyMartin refers to a server as a servant? Take that perspective, transfer it to a customer-server experience, and then wonder why those treated as 'servants' want to at least be paid for 'the privilege'.
Funny how people who engage in 'the hobby' can talk out of both sides of their mouth regarding payment/income arguing things like skill, education, and what their 17 year old niece is capable of. Hypocrites.
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burt-oh-my!
I guess you've never taken a course in argument, reasonong and critical thinking. What I do, what I wear, my favourite food, the colour of Bernie Madoff's underwear have nothing to do with it. What I pay a SP has nothing to do with it either. Read my post abut the Tu Tuoque argument.
Try to stay on topic. The topic is not "what does Burt do for a living". I guess you fail to understand that you can take a stand against something without being a 'basher'. You are taking the same argumentative approach as the gay community, some of whom accuse anyone who challenges their point of view on anything as 'homophobic'. Labelling is a particularly weak form of argument.
I have never really looked down on servers, I am merely questioning the need to pay 15% - 20% in tips, which, if you do the math, can take their wages to well over $25 per hour. Noone has said that those 'treated as 'servants' shouldn't 'at least be paid for 'the privilege' - I am merely questioning (how dare I?) how much. If you feel that they should be paid, then you must also have an amount - no?
To me, good service is part of the dining experience and I am willing to tip to ensure I get it consistently.
I tend to eat at very good restaurants and tend to eat at the same restaurants time and again. I really enjoy a good meal, properly presented, with good wine suggestions or pairings, with top notch knowledgeable service. If I want that on a consistent basis I figure I better tip well. It usually works out for me just fine.
In more economical restaurants I tip because I figure the people working there arn't making a lot and if they can slog through that job and still give me good attitude and service they deserve a little thanks. I don't feel I have to tip, and don't tip in the service is weak, but I figure living in the TO area is expensive and there is nothing wrong with helping those folks out.
Personally I work in a service industry and never get tipped, but our culture doesn't expect it either.
It's a cultural norm to tip for food in our society and you can ignore cultural norms all you want, but there are consequences.
I tend to eat at very good restaurants and tend to eat at the same restaurants time and again. I really enjoy a good meal, properly presented, with good wine suggestions or pairings, with top notch knowledgeable service. If I want that on a consistent basis I figure I better tip well. It usually works out for me just fine.
In more economical restaurants I tip because I figure the people working there arn't making a lot and if they can slog through that job and still give me good attitude and service they deserve a little thanks. I don't feel I have to tip, and don't tip in the service is weak, but I figure living in the TO area is expensive and there is nothing wrong with helping those folks out.
Personally I work in a service industry and never get tipped, but our culture doesn't expect it either.
It's a cultural norm to tip for food in our society and you can ignore cultural norms all you want, but there are consequences.
How much? Been answered. Read and you should see. Did you borrow your neice's textbooks to find out what Tu Tuoque is? You present it as if you're the only one who has ever heard of it.
What people should be paid is relative and in-line with the cost of living and what the market allows. You don't have to do so if you don't want to. You ask 'how much' knowing that it is 15%; 10% in some cases. You insult servers because your words clearly tell them that their income should be cut.
Sure asking how you value other 'services' makes sense. Not because it switches the focus, but because you rationalize you point refering to skill/education. Not only does it work to discredit your argument, it serves as depicting that you obviously have something against one service orientated industry and not another.
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burt-oh-my!
Well, one server said $28/hr was what he wanted, then promptly denied it. So taking him at his word, I still don't know what an hourly wage rate, tips included, servers think is reasonable. So no, it hasn't been clearly answered. Why don't you just stop playing little verbal games and come out and say what you think a fair hourly rate is? I think $15 per hour is adequate. You think differently no doubt - that's fine. Might be nice to know exactly what it is though.
2nd paragraph - I presume that your second sentence means I don't have to pay them if I don't want to.
What I want is a RATIONALE for their wages. I think you must admit that there should be some rationale for it. so in this thread I wanted to discuss that rationale. A lot of people seem to think I guess that we should leave well emough alone. Or they take exception to having the discussion in nuts and bolts, dollars and cents terms. Sorry, I will discuss it if I like.
My asking how much is not asking how much they DO get paid, on a tipping percent basis: clearly I am aware of the fact that 15% or higher is the norm. I want to discuss what this means in terms of an hourly wage, and whether that result in turn is reasonable.
I am not sure what you are referring to in the 1st sentence of the last paragraph - other services. You might be referring to my disinclination to bring in what all sorts of other individual careers pay, including mine, or you might be referring to something else. if the former - again, what I make has no relevancy. I may be underpaid, or overpaid - that doesnt change the fact that servers might be underpaid as well. I may be fat, or I may be thin, but that is irrelevant to the TRUTHFULNESS of whether it is healthier to be fat or thin.
I suppose that if I make any negative comment about any job classification then, accordking to you, I 'have something against them'. I suppose in one sense that is true: I have something about their case that I'd like to have a conversation about.
2nd paragraph - I presume that your second sentence means I don't have to pay them if I don't want to.
What I want is a RATIONALE for their wages. I think you must admit that there should be some rationale for it. so in this thread I wanted to discuss that rationale. A lot of people seem to think I guess that we should leave well emough alone. Or they take exception to having the discussion in nuts and bolts, dollars and cents terms. Sorry, I will discuss it if I like.
My asking how much is not asking how much they DO get paid, on a tipping percent basis: clearly I am aware of the fact that 15% or higher is the norm. I want to discuss what this means in terms of an hourly wage, and whether that result in turn is reasonable.
I am not sure what you are referring to in the 1st sentence of the last paragraph - other services. You might be referring to my disinclination to bring in what all sorts of other individual careers pay, including mine, or you might be referring to something else. if the former - again, what I make has no relevancy. I may be underpaid, or overpaid - that doesnt change the fact that servers might be underpaid as well. I may be fat, or I may be thin, but that is irrelevant to the TRUTHFULNESS of whether it is healthier to be fat or thin.
I suppose that if I make any negative comment about any job classification then, accordking to you, I 'have something against them'. I suppose in one sense that is true: I have something about their case that I'd like to have a conversation about.
