Women are precluded from becoming Navy SEALs

[Hangman]

Without doubt some are. However, of far greater concern (beyond the physical) is the "little sister phenomenon" this isn't much of a factor among pilots, or engine technicians or ships company although it is there. It certainly does, however, become an issue in units in ground combat where men are going to risk their lives when it is a woman in a way that they wouldn’t for another man in the unit.

That's a hollow argument, usually perpetuated by those not in uniform. If it does happen, its a failure of discipline and traning on the part of the men, not the women. Note that nobody ever invokes the "Mother Hen" argument, in which a female soldier takes unnecessary risks to save male counterparts from danger?

Further, I am aware of no instances in recent combat situations where male soldiers died unnecessarily saving a female (who has the same training and equipment etc) from danger. Anyone know of anything more than supposition and anecdote?

 

[rld]

Not officially, but in an era of guerilla warfare in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, merely being on the ground can become a combat role. Over 125 US women have died serving in Iraq and Afghan.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/23/us-military-women-in-combat



Never. Some of my friends did, but I had other interests.

As for qualifications, my academic and athletic performance in school far exceeded those of my friends who did join.

But elite forces are different. Even as a younger man, I do not believe I would have been able to make the cut for an elite group like the SEALs. The regimented lifestyle and extreme physical demands would be too much to bear.

On the first point you are absolutely correct.

On the second point I ask because there is a certain mindset and culture in the military that is hard to understand if you have not been in it. It is quite unique.

For instance I had women in my unit in basic training. Some of them were excellent and suited the military lifestyle very well.

Also, there is the example of some of the outstanding female snipers the USSR used during WWII. They had some outstanding results under horrifying conditions including making a significant contribution at Stalingrad.

I don't think gender is a realistic bar.

 

[blackrock13]

On the first point you are absolutely correct.

On the second point I ask because there is a certain mindset and culture in the military that is hard to understand if you have not been in it. It is quite unique.

For instance I had women in my unit in basic training. Some of them were excellent and suited the military lifestyle very well.

Also, there is the example of some of the outstanding female snipers the USSR used during WWII. They had some outstanding results under horrifying conditions including making a significant contribution at Stalingrad.

I don't think gender is a realistic bar.

Apparently the the modern Russian Army doesn't think so. The Spetsnaz, approximately 10/15,000 strong, has estimates of 300+ women in it's ranks.

 

[red]

Never. Some of my friends did, but I had other interests.

As for qualifications, my academic and athletic performance in school far exceeded those of my friends who did join.

.

athletic performance in school? LMAO.

 

[onthebottom]

At the end of the day the determining factor should be performance not gender. The washout rate for the SEAL program is VERY high, most elite men can't make it through the program but if there is a woman who can I say let her try.

OTB

 

[spraggamuffin]

Navy seals are supposed to get the job of killing done as quickly as possible.

With Women the end is still the same but they are even more devious in their torturous ways as they prefer to take their time.

A woman would have to get married to the target and live with him for a while while she wears him down then divorce him.

This would have been a problem with Osama bin Laden for example who would not have been willing to marry a "non virgin" American female soldier.

 

[simon482]

if you can meet the requirements than you should be allowed in or at least given a chance to try.

 

[Aardvark154]

That's a hollow argument, usually perpetuated by those not in uniform. If it does happen, its a failure of discipline and traning on the part of the men, not the women. Note that nobody ever invokes the "Mother Hen" argument, in which a female soldier takes unnecessary risks to save male counterparts from danger?

Further, I am aware of no instances in recent combat situations where male soldiers died unnecessarily saving a female (who has the same training and equipment etc) from danger. Anyone know of anything more than supposition and anecdote?

Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. It is a real although very minor factor among the first groups I mentioned and there I know that to be the case. Given that, it would seem to be a larger issue for units in ground combat and these days that could include any number of non-combat arms units, however, there I do not have the experience and will concede that it is extrapolation and speculation.

 

[GG2]

athletic performance in school? LMAO.

????

 

[rld]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is simple brute strength.

I understand that there may be a lot of gear to carry on your person. Aside from your rifle, sidearm, and ammunition, there is a lot of other shit that I understand can total 50-70 lbs in normal roles. As these teams need to be able to deploy in many situations and with varying equipment loads you need to have a universal design standard.

Now, doing the math of a 180lb lean, superbly fit muscled man carrying 1/3 of his weight, you convert that to a similarly peak fitness powerhouse of a 140 lb human (man or woman) and it can approach 1/2 their weight. THIS makes a big difference.

Given equally incredible standards of muscle, strength, fitness of both the 140 lb and 180 lb soldier, there is no question that the larger human is stronger.

You can argue about relative needs in other areas but firstly, they need universally strong soldiers to carry their equipment into combat.

I think this is a very important factor. Historically the total load of an infantryman comes in around 70 pounds, weapon and ammo included. This of course varies greatly depending on mission, nationality etc.

The offset is that the special forces tend to get the best gear, which often means lighter. When I was in, American gear in general (weapons aside) was far lighter and more comfortable than the stuff that I was issued.

But if the candidate cannot hump their gear...they have no place in that unit, no matter what their gender.

 

[simon482]

Making the Grade 9 swim team doesn't always make you a future Navy SEAL.

Grade 4 Track and Field prowess does not always translate into becoming a Green Beret.

Being a feared Murderball ace in Grade 2 is a better predictor of a future as a trained killer!

i got trophies for long jump, high jump, 100 meter dash, long distance running and shot put from high school.

 

[GG2]

Apparently the the modern Russian Army doesn't think so. The Spetsnaz, approximately 10/15,000 strong, has estimates of 300+ women in it's ranks.

The Russian army is in tatters.

 

[GG2]

Making the Grade 9 swim team doesn't always make you a future Navy SEAL.

Grade 4 Track and Field prowess does not always translate into becoming a Green Beret.

Being a feared Murderball ace in Grade 2 is a better predictor of a future as a trained killer!

That's a given. But nowhere have I said I am or was ever capable of being a Navy SEAL. In fact I said that I don't think I would have made the cut.

 

[simon482]

Did you go to school in Woodbridge? Sounds like you are a perfect candidate for the Italian Army!


Have you seen the Italian Army boots?

almaguin highlands secondary school between south river and sundridge.

 

[GG2]

Imagine two basketball teams. One is all-female and is composed of the best athletes from the Women's National Basketball league (WNBA). The other team is all-male and is composed of the top athletes from the NBA.
Put them head-to-head. Which team would win? Is there a female equivalent to Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade? Any woman on the WNBA team would destroy me at a game of basketball but I'm not an elite male athlete. But if I want the absolute best, I will need to go with an all-male team.

So few females could make the cut for the SEALS anyway so the added potential provisions that would have to be put in place for female admissions (millions of $$$ set aside for future claims of sexual harrassment) is something better avoided by these types of special forces.

Theoretically gender shouldn't matter so long as qualifications are met. But the Navy SEALS engage in extreme life and death situations. The recruitment of women would be fine in a perfect world, but it would inevitably lead to sexual tension (recall Lisa Nowak - thankfully being an astronaut is not like being a SEAL), and a slow etching away of rigorous male-oriented standards.

Am I wrong?

 

[Fred Zed]

At the end of the day the determining factor should be performance not gender. The washout rate for the SEAL program is VERY high, most elite men can't make it through the program but if there is a woman who can I say let her try.

OTB

Isn't Sarah Palin a Navy SEAL?
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_sarah_palin_bikini_pic.htm

 

[red]

Making the Grade 9 swim team doesn't always make you a future Navy SEAL.

Grade 4 Track and Field prowess does not always translate into becoming a Green Beret.

Being a feared Murderball ace in Grade 2 is a better predictor of a future as a trained killer!

and you aren't doing it under fire or the threat of fire or ieds

 

[blackrock13]

Isn't Sarah Palin a Navy SEAL?
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_sarah_palin_bikini_pic.htm

Hard to say.

Note the ear phones

 

[rld]

Imagine two basketball teams. One is all-female and is composed of the best athletes from the Women's National Basketball league (WNBA). The other team is all-male and is composed of the top athletes from the NBA.
Put them head-to-head. Which team would win? Is there a female equivalent to Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade? Any woman on the WNBA team would destroy me at a game of basketball but I'm not an elite male athlete. But if I want the absolute best, I will need to go with an all-male team.

So few females could make the cut for the SEALS anyway so the added potential provisions that would have to be put in place for female admissions (millions of $$$ set aside for future claims of sexual harrassment) is something better avoided by these types of special forces.

Theoretically gender shouldn't matter so long as qualifications are met. But the Navy SEALS engage in extreme life and death situations. The recruitment of women would be fine in a perfect world, but it would inevitably lead to sexual tension (recall Lisa Nowak - thankfully being an astronaut is not like being a SEAL), and a slow etching away of rigorous male-oriented standards.

Am I wrong?

You might be right, but there is no perfect world.

Firstly your post supposes that there are no sexual tensions in all male seal units and that sexual tensions would arise if females were added.

Your post also supposes that the standards are male oriented, they are not, or shouldn't be. There should be success or mission oriented standards.

i always thought the sexual tension thing was a bit of an insult to the troops involved. Is there any reason to believe that military discipline would fail to prevent sexual harassment any worse than other problems we see in the military, such as drug addiction, gambling, alcohol abuse?

The concern that women might be the subject of a sexual harassment suit is a pretty sad reason to bar women.

Now the number of women who qualify might be quite small, but you should give them a shot. I suspect that very similar arguments were made in opposition to female firefighters and police officers.

 

[blackrock13]

The Russian army is in tatters.

and that means what?

I wasn't talking about the Russian ARMY.

These particular 12+ brigades get better pay, more holidays, the best equipment, better accommodations and they get out earlier. Consider as well, this one arm of the Russian forces is bigger than most countries' front line troops.