Prisoner exchange

[basketcase]

No thread on this yet but Israel is trading over 1000 Palestinian prisoners who were convicted in proper trials (including over 100 convicted of murdering civilians) for one abducted Israeli who's only crime was to be in uniform on the Israeli side of the green line.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...oners-set-for-release-in-shalit-deal-1.390249

Sounds like a victory for legal process over violence

 

[fuji]

Sounds like a confidence building measure. Israel gave up so much in that negotiation that it ought to create some good will.

It was sad to see the Palestinians calling child murderers and other terrorist scum "heroes" though. Shows that terrorist mentality is alive and well there.

 

[onthebottom]

Sounds like the Israelis are training Hamas how to get it's prisoners back.....

OTB

 

[groggy]

It was sad to see the Palestinians calling child murderers and other terrorist scum "heroes" though. Shows that terrorist mentality is alive and well there.

But even those opposed to violence on tactical grounds argue that the prisoners sacrificed for a common cause, and the Palestinians have the right to resist Israel's 44-year military occupation, even with what many elsewhere consider terrorist attacks.

Palestinians are quick to note that hundreds of Palestinian civilians have been killed in fighting with Israel as well, usually the result of “collateral damage” during military operations, such as targeted killings of militant leaders. Although Israel says it never intentionally targets civilians, Palestinians say civilian deaths are almost inevitable given the nature and locations of targets.
“It's a debate that will never end,” said Kadura Fares, a Palestinian prisoners' rights advocate who himself spent 14 years in Israeli prisons for belonging to an armed group before emerging as an outspoken proponent of co-existence.

“An Israeli army officer, from our point of view, he is a terrorist if he gives orders to kill people or bomb certain areas. For Israelis, he is a hero,” Mr. Fares said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/prisoner-swap-causing-anguish-in-israel-elation-in-palestine/article2202545/page2/

Israeli security forces used excessive force against Palestinian civilians, including non-violent demonstrators in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as farmers, fishermen and others working in the Israeli-declared “exclusion zone” inside Gaza or its coastal waters. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, 33 Palestinian civilians in the OPT, including eight children, were killed by Israeli military forces during 2010. Fifteen Palestinian civilians, including four children, were killed and more than 100 injured by Israeli forces enforcing the 1,500m-wide “exclusion zone” inside Gaza’s northern and eastern borders and the maritime restrictions.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2011#section-67-6

Of course, your use of the word 'terrorist' in any situation has no credibility after you called aid workers on the Gaza flotilla 'terrorists', so that word should just be struck from any of your posts. Then it should just be a matter of trying to judge criminal matters.

And since many of these prisoners have been tried by Israel's legal system, which Amnesty reports as unfair:

Palestinians in the OPT subject to Israel’s military justice system continued to face a wide range of abuses of their right to a fair trial. They are routinely interrogated without a lawyer and, although they are civilians, are tried before military not ordinary courts.

That's from the report above.


[/QUOTE]

 

[fuji]

So, Groggy, do you support this statement: "But even those opposed to violence on tactical grounds argue that the prisoners sacrificed for a common cause, and the Palestinians have the right to resist Israel's 44-year military occupation, even with what many elsewhere consider terrorist attacks."

You quoted it. So you think people who attack school children are heroes????

I know you think like a terrorist. I just want you spit it right out. And don't give me some "I think both sides.." bullshit. We both know that only one side engages in terrorism here.

 

[groggy]

So, Groggy, do you support this statement: "But even those opposed to violence on tactical grounds argue that the prisoners sacrificed for a common cause, and the Palestinians have the right to resist Israel's 44-year military occupation, even with what many elsewhere consider terrorist attacks."

You quoted it. So you think people who attack school children are heroes????

I know you think like a terrorist. I just want you spit it right out. And don't give me some "I think both sides.." bullshit. We both know that only one side engages in terrorism here.

I think you should never use the word terrorism again, since you have no idea what it means.

Both sides have legitimate arguments that the other sides tactics could be called terrorism.
One side is routinely taking the land of the other, and that is the heart of why there is strife.

As the UN says:

it seems appropriate to reaffirm the connection between Israeli security concerns and the Palestinian right of self-determination. As long as Palestinian basic rights continue to be denied, the Palestinian right of resistance to occupation within the confines of international humanitarian law and in accord with the Palestinian right of self-determination is bound to collide with the pursuit of security by Israel under conditions of prolonged occupation. In this respect, a durable end to violence on both sides requires an intensification of diplomacy with a sense of urgency, and far greater resolve by all parties to respect international law, particularly as it bears on the occupation as set forth in the Fourth Geneva Convention. Furthermore, it is important to acknowledge that the time has long passed for the implementation of Security Council resolution 242 (1967) requiring Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territories, for Israel to close unlawful settlements, desist from efforts to alter the demographics of East Jerusalem, respect the advisory opinion on the Wall of the International Court of Justice of 2004, and bring the occupation to a genuine end, either through negotiations or by unilateral action.

http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/6B9DEF30DA15290B492575830024F946-Full_Report.pdf

 

[fuji]

You are pathetic. Plainly attacking school children is terrorism. Plainly. By ANY definition. Obviously.

Meanwhile Goldstone has confirmed that Israel has no policy of intentionally targetting civilians.

 

[groggy]

You are pathetic. Plainly attacking school children is terrorism. Plainly. By ANY definition. Obviously.

Meanwhile Goldstone has confirmed that Israel has no policy of intentionally targetting civilians.

Who was talking about attacking school children?
Another straw man argument?

But if it provides a way for you to stop with your one line, Goldstone attack, lets talk about attacking school children.
According to Amnesty:

33 Palestinian civilians in the OPT, including eight children, were killed by Israeli military forces during 2010.

Israel attacked and killed 8 children in the last year.
Is that terrorism?

4 of those school children were killed in the 1500 metre 'exclusion' zone.
Is that terrorism?

 

[fuji]

We're talking about Hamas attacking school children, Groggy, which they do every chance they get.

As for your example, do you have any evidence that was an intentional attack? That the civilians were the target, as opposed to some nearby missile launcher? Goldstone has concluded Israel does not have a policy of attacking civilians.

 

[groggy]

We're talking about Hamas attacking school children, Groggy, which they do every chance they get.

As for your example, do you have any evidence that was an intentional attack? That the civilians were the target, as opposed to some nearby missile launcher? Goldstone has concluded Israel does not have a policy of attacking civilians.

Every chance they can get?
Really, lets see a bit of proof of that humdinger.
While you're at it, lets see some proof that Hamas attacks school children at all, and that any attacks they did weren't either a splinter group or unintentional.

Israel routinely shoots at civilians in the exclusion zone, killing four children can hardly be called unintentional.

 

[basketcase]

...

Both sides have legitimate arguments that the other sides tactics could be called terrorism.
One side is routinely taking the land of the other, and that is the heart of why there is strife.
...

I don't have the country I want (which for Hamas means everything) so I'm going to blow up children. Sounds fair to me. Idiot.

 

[basketcase]

It is very pathetic (and fully expected) that grog is on here defending terrorist attacks in his attempt to ... well I really can't tell what his purpose in this thread is except he doesn't like Israel.

1000+ Palestinians convicted in properly constituted courts, with access to lawyers and appeals traded for one guy who did nothing except walk around inside his own country while wearing a uniform.

 

[GPIDEAL]

It is very pathetic (and fully expected) that grog is on here defending terrorist attacks in his attempt to ... well I really can't tell what his purpose in this thread is except he doesn't like Israel.

1000+ Palestinians convicted in properly constituted courts, with access to lawyers and appeals traded for one guy who did nothing except walk around inside his own country while wearing a uniform.

He's a hostage and not even a prisoner. No wonder Hamas doesn't get my sympathy. However, hope that this move will make both sides work towards a compromise.

 

[fuji]

While you're at it, lets see some proof that Hamas attacks school children at all, and that any attacks they did weren't either a splinter group or unintentional.

Like the school bus they attacked last year with an anti-tank rocket, you mean? Hamas bragged about that on their own website, so it wasn't unintentional. They bragged about it. Hamas has attacked schools many times. Sometimes when one of their Qassam rockets hits a school or kills some kids they celebrate on the streets. I think you should reconsider just how fucked up these guys are, since you seem to want to align yourself with them, and defend them. You ought to think about that. You've become a supporter of terrorism.

Israel routinely shoots at civilians in the exclusion zone, killing four children can hardly be called unintentional.

Sorry, but Israel does not have a policy of targeting civilians. This was confirmed by Goldstone. Let me repeat it one more time in case you are too fucking stupid:

Israel does not target civilians.

Period.

 

[nottyboi]

So, Groggy, do you support this statement: "But even those opposed to violence on tactical grounds argue that the prisoners sacrificed for a common cause, and the Palestinians have the right to resist Israel's 44-year military occupation, even with what many elsewhere consider terrorist attacks."

You quoted it. So you think people who attack school children are heroes????

I know you think like a terrorist. I just want you spit it right out. And don't give me some "I think both sides.." bullshit. We both know that only one side engages in terrorism here.

Only one side kills children huh? I guess Fuji, Pali children don't count?

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

 

[nottyboi]

Like the school bus they attacked last year with an anti-tank rocket, you mean? Hamas bragged about that on their own website, so it wasn't unintentional. They bragged about it. Hamas has attacked schools many times. Sometimes when one of their Qassam rockets hits a school or kills some kids they celebrate on the streets. I think you should reconsider just how fucked up these guys are, since you seem to want to align yourself with them, and defend them. You ought to think about that. You've become a supporter of terrorism.



Sorry, but Israel does not have a policy of targeting civilians. This was confirmed by Goldstone. Let me repeat it one more time in case you are too fucking stupid:

Israel does not target civilians.

Period.

Rubbish, they drop bombs in civilian areas knowing full well that civilians will be killed....but they don't give a SHIT.

 

[fuji]

Rubbish, they drop bombs in civilian areas knowing full well that civilians will be killed....but they don't give a SHIT.

You're leaving out something rather important. Namely, what they were dropping the bomb on, and why it was in a civilian area.

 

[DATYdude]

Are you idiots still arguing about this shit? Why not spend your time on something useful, since neither side will convince the other, EVER. Why not spend your time engaging people who are genuinely interested in the truth?

 

[groggy]

Like the school bus they attacked last year with an anti-tank rocket, you mean? Hamas bragged about that on their own website, so it wasn't unintentional. blah, blah blah

I seem to recall you making this same assertion a few months ago and then linking to a Hamas article supporting a call for a Palestinian Arab Spring. You never did find this supposed bragging then so its kind of surprising that you're at it again. Go ahead, show me the link calling for an Arab Spring again.

Sorry, but Israel does not have a policy of targeting civilians. This was confirmed by Goldstone. Let me repeat it one more time in case you are too fucking stupid:

Israel does not target civilians.

Based of what intel?
Are you a mind reader?
The truth of the matter is that they kill children who get too close to the 'excusion' barrier. I don't care if they say afterwards, 'oh, I thought that pencil case was a missile' or 'I meant to kill that dog' or 'I was ordered to'. The fact is that they kill children. And until you can conclusively prove their intent was only to do nice things for the kids, you are making stuff up. Goodbye Ernst, hello Kreskin.

Go ahead, Kreskin, tell me what the IDF really intended to do.

 

[blackrock13]

He's a hostage and not even a prisoner. No wonder Hamas doesn't get my sympathy. However, hope that this move will make both sides work towards a compromise.

I'm sure his life in captivity has been better because of this.