Do Bitcoin and other crytpo currencies perform useful, value added business/economic functions such as Vechain and Cardano?
Bitcoin bull cycle done or $ 100,000 to come in Q4 of 2021, or Q1 or 2022 ?
- Thread starter LiveInTorontoPartyInMontreal
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Depends. Is a store of wealth, non counterfeitable easily stored and transferable useful?
So basically when compared to the actual value added business/economic functions that blockchain platforms such as Vechain and Cardano perform, the answer is NO.
Do you compare say works of art that sit in storage vaults, and occasionally sold at auction between rich people, as a bad investment? Rare stamps, gems, pop culture pieces?
Not everything has to do something to have value to people. The meme/shit coins are Just that and I never touch them. But I do hold some bitcoin. It has value to people, and will continue to do so. It's finite, transportable, divisible, combinable, and the first one.
If art sits in a climate controlled vault, never seen again, why does it continue to have value when in theory its only value, was its supposed to be seen?
A substantial deflation or collapse of the art, rare stamps, gems or pop culture pieces held by 'rich people' would not produce a economic/financial calamity whereas a collapse of the more widely held, speculative and promoted as a "get rich quick" crypto-currencies scheme would.
Market cap is about 1.6 trillion. And a decent portion of it is now held by institutional investors even the New Zealand govt bought in. The shit coins have a much smaller market cap.
There won't be a collapse at this point. Market is volitile I agree. Overall im up about 35%. At one point about 65% and at another I was down 35% on my initial investment.
Its not different than the stock market. There are more failures than you realize there.
Anti bitcoiners are people with vested interests being threatened and will do everything in their power to spread FUD, ridicule, undermine and constantly make you waste your time to prove to them why bitcoin will not go to 0 or is worth something.
Same thing happened and is happening with Tesla and especially anything related to Elon Musk.
It either threatens their investment, ideology, way or life or identity or all combined.
There is no point wasting your time debating with people who have no interest in learning about the technology and it’s potential. They will make you do all the work, wast your time and find other creative ways to repeat what has been happening since it’s inception 11+ years ago and ignore the 4999900% price increase. It was like a dollar and now worth $50k +/- $15k. Look at all the institutions using it, countries and people and actively use it to pay for goods and services directly.
Look at western union they are fcked now with Twitter introducing sending money directly through lighting in seconds to anywhere in the world.
Arguing with them or trying to debate is pointless and wasteful. You could use your time making serious money. Like when I stopped wasting time on terb I was able to turn $3,000 into $40,000 in a few months against majority on here thinking that doge is a just a joke pointless has no value and will go to 0. This was just to kill some time in between daddy duties and treat it as a hobby like a video game.
Same thing happened and is happening with Tesla and especially anything related to Elon Musk.
It either threatens their investment, ideology, way or life or identity or all combined.
There is no point wasting your time debating with people who have no interest in learning about the technology and it’s potential. They will make you do all the work, wast your time and find other creative ways to repeat what has been happening since it’s inception 11+ years ago and ignore the 4999900% price increase. It was like a dollar and now worth $50k +/- $15k. Look at all the institutions using it, countries and people and actively use it to pay for goods and services directly.
Look at western union they are fcked now with Twitter introducing sending money directly through lighting in seconds to anywhere in the world.
Arguing with them or trying to debate is pointless and wasteful. You could use your time making serious money. Like when I stopped wasting time on terb I was able to turn $3,000 into $40,000 in a few months against majority on here thinking that doge is a just a joke pointless has no value and will go to 0. This was just to kill some time in between daddy duties and treat it as a hobby like a video game.
That doesnt mean it isnt a store of wealth. A piece of stock is a store of wealth. Remember when Apple Dropped? How about the Great Depression. The Great Recession. Raise interest rates and what happens to land prices? Housing prices in 1990? 2007? How about Gold pricing?
I can go on and on. Anything is only as valuable as perception of it is. Even Fiat Cash. Canadian Dollar was once higher than the US Dollar. Before the great recession at .90+ after .65. Many other the same.
It will settle down. As more institutions buy in and it gets stored and used as a purchasing means it will stabilize. In other cases its utility as a blockchain operating system for smart contracts will make its value clear.
The main difference is the art is not divisible and, to own a valuable piece, you must have lots of money. Anyone can own a bitcoin. Thus, there is no "show-off" value of value coming from knowing you own something that other want but do not have or cannot afford. There is no significant increase in utility by owning an extra 0.1 bitcoin. So, there is a huge difference between owning an art or a limited-edition collectable item and almost infinitely-divisible bitcoin.
As for the "storage of value" argument: it could be valid if there will be zero volatility and very low (i.e. inflation-level) increase in price. By a simple mathematical perspectives, the price cannot increase faster than the risk-free interest rate (or, if we allow price to have volatility comparable to market volatility, then it cannot increase faster than the economy growth, which is equal to the stock market return minus dividend yield, i.e. less that the market return). That is, in the long-run Bitcoin must produce lower return than comparable financial instrument, otherwise it outgrow the entire economy. At that point (5, 10, 50, 100 years from now) noone will want to hold it. So, rational people will try to get rid of it just before that. Unfortunately, many people are idiots, so, some rational people are betting that these idiots cannot use backward induction. So far, that rational people making money. But they must ask themselves a question: where they are on the "smart" scale to be able to exit before the crash. Bitcoin does not produce any economics value, so, any gains received now will paid by people who will lose lots of money 5, 10, 50, or 100 years from now. It is a bubble, but it seems a very slow growing bubble.
Are you for real??? How a piece of stock is a store of wealth if the company is actually engaged in economic activity and makes profit? Gold is a store of wealth. Art/collectables are store of wealth. Stocks and corporate bonds are real (in economics sense) investment.
About "everything is valuable as perception of it". It depends on the units you use to measure value. If you measure value in rice, than 1kg of rice will always have value of 1kg of rice. The natural measure of value is the basket of goods and services. Money are used to facilitate transactions. As long as everyone agrees to use them that way and have beliefs that the government will not abuse their power by printing too much money, the money have value. Can Bitcoin be currency? Even if we assume that its value in real terms will stabilise (i.e., the price of a basket of goods in bitcoins will not change much over time), the problem with bitcoin is that (1) transition costs and infrastructure support costs are high and (2) it prevents Government from using monetary policy (and, without it, the economy is fucked), so, the governments will never allow it to be a currency. Above, I explained why it cannot be a store of wealth or a producer of invisible "ownership-pride" type of benefit like arts. Which makes Bitcoin a bubble. Block chain, on the other hand, may be a useful technological tool.
Hence its appeal. Anyone can own it. And you are not taking into account the remittance market world wide. This will kill a multi billion market. And a guy like me planning world travel.
Go beyond the investor market and look at the third world market. There are now more people with smart phones than indoor plumbing and access to a toilet. And they don't have access to stable currency either. Or are overcharged(up to 30%) for it and to transfer it.
That's the matket it will flourish.
Bitcoin is Blockchain. Its the first. Anyway my exposure there is tiny. Im heavy in ADA Cardano and VeChain.
If a stock doesn't pay a dividend its a store of wealth. With possible growth and loss potential.
Two problems with your arguments:
1) Bitcoin is divisible, so, even if everyone will own a piece of it (just to fee god about himself), they can own a very small portion of it s that the total ownership will be very low
2) Agree about the 3rd world counties now. But what about 100 or 200 years from now? Look at the total profit a single bitcoin brings to all of its owners from the moment of its creation till, say, 1,000,000 years from now. It will be negative (not zero because of the costs of mining). So, at the end, it is still a bubble, the question is "when it will pop". On the other hand, real investment produces dividends that comes from economic activity.
There are no stocks that will be expected to pay no dividends FOREVER. Bitcoin will NEVER pay dividends.
I'm very surprised of Cardano's price action with their Summit going on and the Dish/ Chainlink announcements . .. Supposed to fly during Oct/Nov, say
many analysts. . . . 2x , 5x ?
many analysts. . . . 2x , 5x ?
Bitcoin is not the only coin. Remember that. Just like the US dollar is not the only currency.
True. But considering say Apple Stock dividend and its worth does anyone own it for that? Or for its speculative value and store of wealth potential?
Slow build and burn. Its coming. A little voice inside me sees it as the Apple of Crypto. Its all the other financial news that is hurting price.
