Ukraine updates
- Thread starter mandrill
- Start date
- Status
Back in Dec. 2022 they were:
Denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine.
Ukraine must give over to Russia control over Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk, including any areas they never controlled or don't control now.
Ukraine countered with:
Putin withdrawing all troops from Ukraine borders that were made in 1991.
Russia faces punishment for its invasion of Ukraine.
Security guarantees from Russia.
Why are you opposed to peace?
If Russia withdrew, the fighting would stop.
Why aren't you in favor of Russia withdrawing?
Ukraine does need denazification (as does Russia to be fair). Nazis are state sponsored in their law enforcement and military.
It is not a bad idea to split Ukraine. After all eastern Ukraine is pro-Russia.
Security guarantees is a big IF.
I know China put some offer beyond "people should talk" on the table, but Russia seemed to think it didn't let them control enough of Ukraine and so rejected it from what I could gather.
NATO dismantling will also ensure peace. Why aren't you in favor of NATO dismantling? After all they caused the war.
I love how you consistently think that Ukraine probably shouldn't expect a security guarantee from Russia no matter what they agree to.
If Russia can't invade Ukraine again, it can never feel safe, so Russia must never be prevented from invading Ukraine.
No what I mean is, what does a security guarantee look like? That is up in the air is what I wanted to say.
Very good!
You noticed I was making fun of how ludicruously stupid your position and argumentation has been!
Of course the main difference is that Russia caused the war, with the invasion and all, and could end it tomorrow by withdrawing.
Oh bullshit, that is exactly what you mean.
It's "a big if" because you can't see any guarantee Russia would accept because those would mean Russia couldn't invade anymore.
It was a 12 point plan, here it is right from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China :
https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html
China’s Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis
2023-02-24 09:00
1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. Universally recognized international law, including the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, must be strictly observed. The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld. All countries, big or small, strong or weak, rich or poor, are equal members of the international community. All parties should jointly uphold the basic norms governing international relations and defend international fairness and justice. Equal and uniform application of international law should be promoted, while double standards must be rejected.
2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.
3. Ceasing hostilities. Conflict and war benefit no one. All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control. All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible, so as to gradually deescalate the situation and ultimately reach a comprehensive ceasefire.
4. Resuming peace talks. Dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the Ukraine crisis. All efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis must be encouraged and supported. The international community should stay committed to the right approach of promoting talks for peace, help parties to the conflict open the door to a political settlement as soon as possible, and create conditions and platforms for the resumption of negotiation. China will continue to play a constructive role in this regard.
5. Resolving the humanitarian crisis. All measures conducive to easing the humanitarian crisis must be encouraged and supported. Humanitarian operations should follow the principles of neutrality and impartiality, and humanitarian issues should not be politicized. The safety of civilians must be effectively protected, and humanitarian corridors should be set up for the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones. Efforts are needed to increase humanitarian assistance to relevant areas, improve humanitarian conditions, and provide rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, with a view to preventing a humanitarian crisis on a larger scale. The UN should be supported in playing a coordinating role in channeling humanitarian aid to conflict zones.
6. Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs). Parties to the conflict should strictly abide by international humanitarian law, avoid attacking civilians or civilian facilities, protect women, children and other victims of the conflict, and respect the basic rights of POWs. China supports the exchange of POWs between Russia and Ukraine, and calls on all parties to create more favorable conditions for this purpose.
7. Keeping nuclear power plants safe. China opposes armed attacks against nuclear power plants or other peaceful nuclear facilities, and calls on all parties to comply with international law including the Convention on Nuclear Safety (CNS) and resolutely avoid man-made nuclear accidents. China supports the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in playing a constructive role in promoting the safety and security of peaceful nuclear facilities.
8. Reducing strategic risks. Nuclear weapons must not be used and nuclear wars must not be fought. The threat or use of nuclear weapons should be opposed. Nuclear proliferation must be prevented and nuclear crisis avoided. China opposes the research, development and use of chemical and biological weapons by any country under any circumstances.
9. Facilitating grain exports. All parties need to implement the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed by Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the UN fully and effectively in a balanced manner, and support the UN in playing an important role in this regard. The cooperation initiative on global food security proposed by China provides a feasible solution to the global food crisis.
10. Stopping unilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure cannot solve the issue; they only create new problems. China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Relevant countries should stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries, so as to do their share in deescalating the Ukraine crisis and create conditions for developing countries to grow their economies and better the lives of their people.
11. Keeping industrial and supply chains stable. All parties should earnestly maintain the existing world economic system and oppose using the world economy as a tool or weapon for political purposes. Joint efforts are needed to mitigate the spillovers of the crisis and prevent it from disrupting international cooperation in energy, finance, food trade and transportation and undermining the global economic recovery.
12. Promoting post-conflict reconstruction. The international community needs to take measures to support post-conflict reconstruction in conflict zones. China stands ready to provide assistance and play a constructive role in this endeavor.
Russia withdrawing is not a possibility now. NATO pushed them into war.
Your argument that Putin just invaded an "innocent" country most definitely is a ridiculous position however.
You need to be neutral when you argue about this war. But you are pro-Ukrainian and anti-Russian. So you will always be biased in your judgements and arguemntation.
I on the other hand, dont care for both those fucks. I think they are both scumbags and racists. So I argue objectively.
There are no good guys in this war.
Last edited:
No am saying, I dont know how that would turn out. I dont have an opinion on it. Anything involving NATO, Russia wont accept. So I dont know what the resolution would be for that.
Isn't that the reason Nato was formed?
To protect countries from invasion by a foreign military force.
You might be right, Russia gave Ukraine security guarantees to give up their nukes, then didn't honor the Minsk deals because as Putin said "I will say this clearly: There are no Russian troops in Ukraine."
Then on February 18th 2022 Putin said "These military exercises, drills, are purely defensive and are not a threat to any other country."
The Minsk deal was meant to hoodwink Russia, that is well known. Given the erosion of trust and the subsequent refusal to arrive at any compromise, war was inevitable.
And yes Putin said that, but we all knew Russia would invade Ukraine since 2008. If you didn't then you weren't paying attention.
NATO should have learned and worked out a compromise and they did not.
We interpret that differently, I read it as no country should invade another country due to security concerns.
Key points.
The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others.
The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture.
I read it as definitely meaning to dismantle NATO.
"All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation"
The other points still apply.
- Status
