Ukraine updates

[bver_hunter]

You are the biggest liars for the liberals in this board! Now trying to switch or twists the truth! FACTS are the Steele dossier was paid by Hillary Clintons! You guys own that narrative!

Obviously, you are living in denial as to the facts. It was originally paid for by the Republicans when they tried to get the dirt on Trumpty Dumpty during the Republican Nominations:

Who paid for it?

During the Republican primaries, a research firm called Fusion GPS was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website, to unearth potentially damaging information about Mr. Trump. The Free Beacon — which was funded by a major donor supporting Mr. Trump’s rival for the party’s nomination, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida — told Fusion GPS to stop doing research on Mr. Trump in May 2016, as Mr. Trump was clinching the Republican nomination.

The Trump Dossier: What We Know and Who Paid for It (Published 2017)

The dossier has gained notoriety for its salacious, unproven claims about President Trump. Its research was funded by an unnamed Republican and then partly by Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

www.nytimes.com

When Urkaraine lose the war , I going to enjoy see you eat crow! Russia will wipe out Ukrainian army by and of this autumn! president Zelensky neoNazis sympathizer will probably be dead by his own hand sucides, or kill by his Generals, or by his own people or by the CIA. I going to see you crying or sobbing like a baby in a dark corner wonder what the fuck was wrong was the mainstream media narrative about Ukraine first winning the war then Russia run out of amino, etc… You going to see that you was brainwashed by the liberal garbage in the mainstream media! You the mouth piece of the neocons or highly mostly likely neoliberals warmongering! Always blindly trust your blue tribal group/ leaders no matter what!

Is your head stuck in Putin's ass? Seems like you are his mouthpiece on this despicable tyrant who is the real Neo-nazi, as his actions are no different from that of Hitler who invaded the neighbouring nations and carried out a genocide against the Jews. Zelensky is a Jew, and no wonder that he is targeted by Putin. You seem to be relishing in the killings of the Ukrainians who are battling these thugs from Russia. We know that you are pissed off that Herr Putin did not take Ukraine in a stroll and more than a year later seems like he is getting no closer to doing so. You are a traitor to Canada and NATO who are allies with Ukraine PERIOD!!

 

[bver_hunter]

The war crimes issue is a serious one.

How the west reacts when a Ukrainian group commits an obvious war crime will tell us a lot.
(It will also depend on how the Ukrainian leadership reacts.)

I have little faith of only one side committing any, that's not how war goes.
But how these things go has a lot to do with leadership and systems.
I hope that Ukraine cracks down quickly on any war crimes committed by their troops, but I fear they might not under the "we're desperate, everything is allowed" argument and that will be a moral nightmare.

The real crimes and killings are being committed by Russia with their indiscriminate bombings of Ukrainian Schools, Hospitals, Businesses and their Power grid. Everyone expected Ukraine to cave in to Russia during the winter as these criminal acts by Russia was designed to put Ukraine in the dark and without any power to heat their homes. We are in Spring now and it is really sad the see the numbers of Ukrainian civilians butchered by the Russians and thrown into mass graves!!

 

[Valcazar]

Can be useful though. It now appears Russian propaganda tools want a drawn out war. Accusation is admission and they know now they can't win any sort of victory quickly or ever destroy Ukraine entirely. If they can put enough facts on the ground, though, they may be able to ignore internationally established borders. It works for Israel, doesn't it?

"Facts on the ground"/fait accompli was clearly the original plan.

And, to be honest, it might have worked.

If Russia had won in Urkraine in 3 days, or even a couple of weeks, the odds are the West wouldn't have done much.
There would have been some sanctions, there would have been a lot of hand wringing during the execution and ethnic cleansing stages, but odds are not much would have been done.

Would a lightning win still have provoked Finland and Sweden to join NATO?
Hard to say. If it didn't, then the invasion of Ukraine would have been a near-complete success from Russia's point of view.

If it still did provoke Finland and Sweden to shift and try to join NATO, Russia would have had a year or more to make moves to block it from happening anyway, which still may have been worth enough to be a solid win.

 

[krealtarron]

 

[krealtarron]

 

[krealtarron]

 

[Valcazar]

The real crimes and killings are being committed by Russia with their indiscriminate bombings of Ukrainian Schools, Hospitals, Businesses and their Power grid. Everyone expected Ukraine to cave in to Russia during the winter as these criminal acts by Russia was designed to put Ukraine in the dark and without any power to heat their homes. We are in Spring now and it is really sad the see the numbers of Ukrainian civilians butchered by the Russians and thrown into mass graves!!

I didn't talk about the Russian war crimes because they are known, ongoing, and will continue.
International pressure has maybe got them to back off a couple, but mostly Russia is fine with not trying to dissuade them, maybe even actually rewarding them.

That's horrible, of course.

My concern is when information about Ukrainian war crimes surfaces.
The longer the war goes on, the more likely that will happen.

 

[krealtarron]

 

[Valcazar]

Exactly.
So far these incidents have been relatively limited and investigated without much interference.
I think it is very optimistic to think it remains that way.

 

[krealtarron]

Exactly.
So far these incidents have been relatively limited and investigated without much interference.
I think it is very optimistic to think it remains that way.

What is your evidence that these things have been limited and have been investigated without much interference? Ukraine is a corrupt country that wont even publish its losses. Are they going to just let anyone "investigate without interference" on war crimes?

Truth is there is not a lot we know about either Ukrainian losses or their war crimes. This one probably leaked.

 

[krealtarron]

Yes.
There are no rogue military units in the US.
(I know the arguments about some of the more strident militias being filled with enough ex-military to qualify but I find it a weak argument.)

But the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy concerning right wing extremism is a well known issue in both the military and the police forces of the US.

People with neo-nazi beliefs and an entire battalion of neo-nazis and neo-nazi symbolism, approved by the state are very different things.

 

[krealtarron]

You're right. I meant Russia would be destroyed there.

So if NATO lured Russia in and Russia wouldn't refuse to take the bait to deny NATO its victory and now won't withdraw to deny NATO its victory, does that mean you do think Russia is just a patsy for NATO and doomed to destruction because they are unable to counteract NATO's superior tactics and manipulation?

NATO for sure backed Russia into a corner. There were no good choices. They cannot allow Ukraine to become a member of NATO. Nor will it be right for them to attack. Of the two, they had to choose option 2, after all the threats and the build ups and what not for the last 30 years.

 

[krealtarron]

At least you are admitting they can negotiate.
I thought you had gone full on blood lust.

Yes, I am glad you acknowledge that the belligerents in a confrontation tend to have demands and interests and negotiating these is difficult.

I'm just saying, since you insist that the war itself is a tragedy and should be ended as soon as possible, that the single fastest way to end it is for Russia to stop prosecuting the war that they started.
That you find those conditions unacceptable should hopefully make you realize that maybe there are conditions the other party in the war (Ukraine) also finds unacceptable, and your continual insistence that they accept whatever Russia demands is perhaps not the most realistic expectation.

I have always said that there should be ceasefire and talks. Not sure how you inferred blood lust. I also dont know where you inferred that I insinuated that Ukraine accept all Russian demands. The single fastest way could also be for NATO to completely disengage from Ukraine and Ukraine surrendering and saying they are ready to talk. None of those options where one side just "gives up" is possible now. A compromise through dialogue where both come out "looking good" is the only way this will end.

This a blatant and obvious lie.
You have a fierce ideological commitment to the idea that NATO is to blame and must be dismantled.

(You have other obvious biases, sure, but that's the actual dog you have in the fight.)

If you were willing to step back and be objective or cooler in your analysis of geopolitics in all its complexity, you wouldn't say quite as many silly things as you say.

If you were to step back, and look at this objectively, considering the last 30 years of NATO Russia relations, then you wouldn't be saying quite as many silly things as you say about Putin and his goals of grand conquest. I dont have a dog in the fight as I have no ties personally to either country. Me blaming NATO is just a matter of objective fact that they are to be blamed.

Yes.
We've discussed your cartoon view of history and geopolitics.

I think my "cartoon" view of geopolitics is far more realistic than your hollywood movie script view of geopolitics.

 

[krealtarron]

All Nazis are bad, I said that in that post but apparently you can't read.

Its just amazing that you would admit there are Russian and American Nazis but say only Ukrainian ones are bad enough to invade and destroy an entire country over.
And then claim its because you're antiwar.

Or justify destroying a country because they considered signing a treaty with NATO.
Or justify destroying a country because you don't like Ukrainians and think they are all puppets.

Why do you make such dumb and desperate comments?

 

[Valcazar]

NATO for sure backed Russia into a corner. There were no good choices. They cannot allow Ukraine to become a member of NATO. Nor will it be right for them to attack. Of the two, they had to choose option 2, after all the threats and the build ups and what not for the last 30 years.

And the attack was going to accomplish what?
This is the part I always find fascinating in your analysis.

If it was a trap by NATO, the attack was going to play into NATO's hands, according to you.
If it wasn't a trap by NATO, how does this attack stop NATO or stop (even delay?) the destruction of Russia NATO wants?

Your argument has always been that option 2 was the choice they HAD to make.
Why?
What benefit does it give Russia to have waged this war?

Leave out morality.
You keep claiming that you believe Russia "had no right to attack".
But just because it would be immoral and illegal according to you, you insist they HAD to do it?
Why?
What strategic and/or tactical benefit did they hope to gain that made it obvious they had to attack?

Remember, you insist that NATO wanted this war. This means Russia was so convinced this was the best move that they willingly walked into a fight they knew their opponent prepared, baited, and set up specifically to trap them.

Given all that, they attacked anyway. Why? What did they think they would gain, and what winning condition was available and achievable in their minds that made this the move they HAD to make?

 

[Valcazar]

People with neo-nazi beliefs and an entire battalion of neo-nazis and neo-nazi symbolism, approved by the state are very different things.

Ukraine insists that isn't an entire battalion of neo-nazis.
Just like the US insists that some of its battalions are not entirely neo-nazis.

 

[Valcazar]

What is your evidence that these things have been limited and have been investigated without much interference? Ukraine is a corrupt country that wont even publish its losses. Are they going to just let anyone "investigate without interference" on war crimes?

Truth is there is not a lot we know about either Ukrainian losses or their war crimes. This one probably leaked.

You don't think we are going to hear about interference on war crime investigation?
I quite agree there are probably more incidents that deserve investigation that haven't come out yet.
That's the nature of war.

 

[jcpro]

When you are in a close quarters combat for an extended time, shooting pows becomes almost automatic, unless they're of high value like officers. From what I've seen on many media, this is a routine in that conflict on both sides.

 

[Valcazar]

I also dont know where you inferred that I insinuated that Ukraine accept all Russian demands.

OK.

The single fastest way could also be for NATO to completely disengage from Ukraine and Ukraine surrendering and saying they are ready to talk.

Seriously, do you even look at what you write?

None of those options where one side just "gives up" is possible now. A compromise through dialogue where both come out "looking good" is the only way this will end.

You literally just said that Ukraine had to surrender, you knob.

If you were to step back, and look at this objectively, considering the last 30 years of NATO Russia relations, then you wouldn't be saying quite as many silly things as you say about Putin and his goals of grand conquest. I dont have a dog in the fight as I have no ties personally to either country. Me blaming NATO is just a matter of objective fact that they are to be blamed.

No.
It really is that you are married to a world view and can't escape your ideological blinders.

Look at people like the Quincy Institute - you can see the same problem.

The fact is that the US and NATO have been bad actors on a global scale repeatedly.
That this doesn't mean you can blame them for everything seems to have short circuited your brain.

I think my "cartoon" view of geopolitics is far more realistic than your hollywood movie script view of geopolitics.

Hollywood?
Dear god, I wouldn't even accuse you of "Hollywood" level of understanding.

That's more like mitchell or Addict2Sex with his insistence that everything end with dramatic reveals and executions.

 

[krealtarron]

Seriously, do you even look at what you write?
You literally just said that Ukraine had to surrender, you knob.

I am not saying Ukraine had to surrender you dimwit. I am saying that just like you are proposing the impractical scenario that Russia just admit defeat and withdraw, it is as impractical to say that Ukraine just lay down their arms and surrender. Both would mean that the war comes to an immediate end. Both wont happen. Do you not know how to read between the lines? Or does your reading between the lines only extend to dishonestly spinning and misinterpreting someone's words ? In fact you deliberately ignored my next two lines:

None of those options where one side just "gives up" is possible now. A compromise through dialogue where both come out "looking good" is the only way this will end.

Have some integrity when you debate.

The fact is that the US and NATO have been bad actors on a global scale repeatedly.
That this doesn't mean you can blame them for everything seems to have short circuited your brain.

I am not blaming US and NATO for eeeeeeverything. I am blaming them for THIS war. And the other invasions, regime changes and misadventures they have engaged in and participated in worldwide.