FOX is so damn dangerous to the US that they need to flush it and ship it's radical hosts to Russia.
Putin's Russia & Ukraine updates
- Thread starter mandrill
- Start date
I suppose if Perogie wins quickly and cleanly and the rest of the Russian military goes en mass to his side with no moral problems it won't make much of a difference or if he gets crushed [which seems less likely] likewise aside from losing Wagner which seemed to be on it's way out anyways, likewise much difference.
But the whole stream of possibly outcomes, to just dismiss that is, again it's PoMo.
Wait, hold on!!! Do you still think this will not change a thing for Ukraine? Please enlighten me JC aka "military" expert!!!
ANd the 3 day operation has turned into an almost 18 month cluster fuck. His latest words see to indicate that if he was in power he would have little interest in eating Poutine's Shit sandwich. Not his circus, not his monkeys seems to be his frame.
Enemy of my Enemy.
When the Mafia is fucking you over and the Yakuza are willing to help...
You potato. Moving your front line 1000 KM away from a natural defensive barrier only makes things harder if you are DEFENDING, not ATTACKING.
Your scenario was about a NATO ATTACK.
As for the rest, why even bother reading it after such a weak "Me fail English that's unpossible" start.
As for your second point, what do you think the results would be if Ukraine was part of NATO, instead of dripping in equipment when the political winds are right. Air dominance right away, NATO troops on the ground fucking shit up. Also in a scenerio of a NATO attack on Russia, what sort of special needs JCpro world would that involve holding up in the Carpathians.
Even without NATO, just as is, lets look at your preference.
Instead of keeping most of Ukraine you have with withdraw from pretty much all of it.
Yeah that little sliver of brown next to Hungary. Bravo sarcastic clapping.
That is pretty much a surrender.
Yeah defending most of Ukraine, making Poutine look like the fool, getting western support by showing you can do well, and now Coup. Yeah the Ukrainians really fucked up, they should have surrendered most of the country.
You might has experience but your analytical skills are complete shit and you have an addict level inability to see and admit when you are wrong.
The stuff in the middle is mostly bullshit also but I couldn't be bothered to go through them one by one because it's obvious you don't give a fuck.
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Trent appears to be wrong here and ISW correct.
Apparently Prighozin made some kind of deal with Lukashenko, wherever he is.
The bigger question is which is still around tomorrow, Putin or Prigozhin.
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Went to bed early last night, got out of bed late.
To this shit.
Fuck me, this just made verything so much more dangerous. I've always thought this Wagner Group was pretty damn sketchy. An independent military force operating within a country with a huge military of its own? Like what could go wrong right? (USA please take note when it comes to all those "militias" you all think so highly of, but I digress)
The entire region just went critically unstable. On one had you have a despearate Putin who is capable of anything. On the other hand you've got the insane cook who thinks he's going take over the show because the Russian Miilary is run by a group of fools and he will show the Russian government who is in charge.
So what does Putin do? Well, for one, he could simply create a crisis so huge that it engulfs the entire country. And if there's anything I've come to understand it's that desperate governments do desperate things in order to cement their hold on power. I would not put it past putin to launch nuclear weapons at Ukraine now. Create an incident so massive that it literally sucks the oxygen out of any potential coup. Prigozhin would literally find himself in the middle of the street screaming "this way, this way" while everyone else runs the the other way toward the inferno that Putin has lit.
Likewise, if Prigozhin does find a way to uproot Putin and his government, well, he's going to have a revolution on his hands and he simply won't have the manpower to go it alone. He too will need to create a crisis to really the people behind him. The only way I see Prigozhin winning the day is if he somehow manages to get the Russian military to throw down and join him. So how does he do that? Well, this guy Prigozhin has never been Mr. "Give Peace a Chance" He's a thug and a murderer, so he's not above doing anything. So much for him being Putin's chef. Either way, Prig and the situation he has created has now just made it exponentially more dangerous for Ukraine and even the world.
This has the very realy potential to get hugely out of control real quick.
To this shit.
Fuck me, this just made verything so much more dangerous. I've always thought this Wagner Group was pretty damn sketchy. An independent military force operating within a country with a huge military of its own? Like what could go wrong right? (USA please take note when it comes to all those "militias" you all think so highly of, but I digress)
The entire region just went critically unstable. On one had you have a despearate Putin who is capable of anything. On the other hand you've got the insane cook who thinks he's going take over the show because the Russian Miilary is run by a group of fools and he will show the Russian government who is in charge.
So what does Putin do? Well, for one, he could simply create a crisis so huge that it engulfs the entire country. And if there's anything I've come to understand it's that desperate governments do desperate things in order to cement their hold on power. I would not put it past putin to launch nuclear weapons at Ukraine now. Create an incident so massive that it literally sucks the oxygen out of any potential coup. Prigozhin would literally find himself in the middle of the street screaming "this way, this way" while everyone else runs the the other way toward the inferno that Putin has lit.
Likewise, if Prigozhin does find a way to uproot Putin and his government, well, he's going to have a revolution on his hands and he simply won't have the manpower to go it alone. He too will need to create a crisis to really the people behind him. The only way I see Prigozhin winning the day is if he somehow manages to get the Russian military to throw down and join him. So how does he do that? Well, this guy Prigozhin has never been Mr. "Give Peace a Chance" He's a thug and a murderer, so he's not above doing anything. So much for him being Putin's chef. Either way, Prig and the situation he has created has now just made it exponentially more dangerous for Ukraine and even the world.
This has the very realy potential to get hugely out of control real quick.
There's a big strawman. At no point did I say NATO would attack from Ukraine. In fact, I kept repeating the opposite. And still do. Just because my points don't justify your argument doesn't mean I'm contradicting myself. I have no desire to justify your claims. I'm saying your entire argument is wrong. You're the one that keeps saying NATO should attack from Ukraine, no me.
I don't know if you think NATO attacks along The entire front from St P to Rostov-on-Don or what, but NATO still uses hammer and anvil tactics. The plan was for the hammer to come from Poland, through Belarus, swing south, encircle forces in the massive Ukrainian pocket, and smash them against the anvil that was the Carpathians, and spreading out along that line to shorten the front.
You say your plan was to attack from Ukraine. Ok, and do what with the Polish/Belarusian border? Attack from there too? Or defend there? If you're saying attack from there too, I'm telling you there's a logistics problem with that. It's too big a front. So why attack from a naturally defensive position and defend at a position with no defensive advantage? It's lunacy. Especially when the heavier resistance is going to be at place with the natural defenses.
It is ineffective to attack from Ukraine. Even with Ukraine in NATO, that still wouldn't be a stepping off point because the infrastructure isn't built for it. You're the one who keeps saying it would be. I'm saying NATO's plan has always been to hold at Carpathia with specialised mountain warfare troops and that is why Ukraine joining NATO doesn't help, but rather harms NATO's plans. Russia has always had more forces along the southern edge of its border. That's the more heavily fortified area. NATO does not want to launch initial attacks there if it can help it. It wants to suck Russia into attacking it there.
Just because you assume attacks would come from Ukraine despite me never claiming so, and actually saying the opposite, doesn't mean I don't understand English. It's you making strawmen that are confusing you. Read what I'm saying without making assumptions about what I'm saying rather than assume I'm trying to defend your arguments.
I thought you stopped reading?
Over a large country that NATO didn't want to have to worry about air superiority or air supremacy over at the outset. And closer to Russian anti-air defenses before the nations tasked with neutralizing them at range has had a chance to carry out it's plan. NATO would still get air supremacy, but it would cost more than letting Russia have it initially. Because Moscow is the only city Russia is protecting with air defenses. Again, it is better for NATO if Ukraine didn't join. NATO was prepared to sacrifice a non-member Ukraine to facilitate the destruction of Russia, because it was a non-member.
Towards where? Moscow? I've told you, it will take weeks for Moscow to be ready. We need France and the UK to achieve their primary NATO objectives before we can move on Moscow, and that will take a week or more. Getting there in a day or two doesn't help. You're also facing stronger forces on that part of the front and losing the advantages of the hammer and anvil plan that NATO has.
I'm sorry, are you hard of hearing? Do I need to yell? UKRAINE IN NATO IS A LIABILITY AND MAKES THINGS HARDER. Ukraine getting in NATO throws a major wrench in their plans for exactly this: how can you set up a defensive line at the Carpathians when one of the nations you've pledged to protect is in front of them? Answer: you can't. Which is why after 50 years Ukraine was still being given the run around. NATO did not want Ukraine. Strategically it offers nothing of strategic value. I'll say it again: NATO with Finland is stronger and better than NATO with Ukraine. NATO's plans are better without Ukraine and are improved with the addition of Finland. Which was my initial post: Finland is the lynchpin to NATO's plans and was a far bigger threat to Russia than Ukraine. If Russia really needed to invade a country to protect itself from NATO, Finland should have been where they did it.
Unless they aren't in NATO, in which case it's not a surrender, but a trap. Which is what I've been saying. Maybe if you read everything instead of giving up because it's too hard for you to understand, you'd get that.
Again, are you hard of hearing? I was talking about Ukraine joining NATO before this war. What's with the massive strawmen? I've been and remain a bit supporter of helping Ukraine. I hope they completely crush Russia. But the argument that Russia had to invade because Ukraine was going to join NATO and that's a threat to Russia is nonsense because NATO didn't actually want Ukraine to join.
Says the guy who admits he doesn't read everything.
Ukraine is a giant pocket where Russia is and always had planned to move first (either attack or, as Putin hoped, Ukraine to simply side with Russia) in a war with NATO because Russia needed the resources and manufacturing in Ukraine. The natural defenses between Ukraine and NATO makes it a perfect location to encircle Russian forces and smash them against the anvil of the Carpathians. With Ukraine in NATO those plans don't work, which is why Ukraine joining NATO was never a that to Russia. NATO didn't want Ukraine. It offers no strategic value to NATO and actually weakens it's position.
The fact that Russia attacked an independent Ukraine was better for NATO than letting Ukraine in. Because now Ukraine is paying the costs and NATO is gaining the benefits (nothing has been given to Ukraine, it's all been lend-lease and had cost minimal NATO lives). Which was the entire point of my initial post: anyone backing up Russian propaganda that Ukraine was going to join NATO and that was a threat clearly doesn't understand military strategy. It's callous to look at it that way, but these are the realities of military planning and strategy.
Again, I've run this war game as part of NATO forces this century, and you still think it's 1941. You haven't figured out a secret that NATO intelligence hasn't, I promise you that. We know better than you. You're wrong: Finland was a far bigger threat to Russia than Ukraine, and therefore the argument that Russia had to invade Ukraine because of NATO is nonsense. I know you aren't claiming that, but that's what my initial post was about that you've taken so much offense to. You are indeed wrong, and no matter how much you try to say I suck at analysis, you're still wrong. I know you're still wrong because we ran your proposed scenario in war games and it cost more lives and equipment. It's a far worse plan.
Finland in NATO is stronger than NATO without Finland. Ukraine in NATO is weaker than NATO without Ukraine. That doesn't mean NATO will abandon them now, or that NATO should. Russia's invasion has changed the dynamic. But only mindless shills think that can justify Russia's invasion by claiming Ukraine was going to join NATO and that was a threat.
Edit: and no, I don't care if you don't believe my credentials. I'm not going to do anything to prove them. I'm trying to educate on the subject, but if someone wants to remain ignorant that's on them. It's no skin off my nose.
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You are so right!
The American led, evil and degenerate western world, especially the failing, queer loving NATO countries and even more so the evil, degenerate, Nazi, war criminal faux Ukrainian non-state invaders should be bending over backwards to kiss Putin's ass for saving them from nuclear annihilation by single handedly preventing a possible cataclysmic end to the always peaceful Russia state and to safely and securely preventing it's nuclear arsenal from falling into the hands of unstable, crazy hellbent actors unlike himself.
"America, NATO if you can hear me, Stop your unprovoked invasion of and attack on Russia and cede back all of Ukraine to it's rightful owner, Russia."
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Who said I approve of him?
Perogie is a vile, genocidal mass murderer. Just like his Master and your idol, Putin. So I'm all for them taking each other out. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
So like I said, the
Oh, and I gotta add... you are such an intellectually dishonest weakling in feebly trying to turn my statement around. No wonder you have such a kinship with all that is Russia. You run away like a scared schoolyard bully when someone pushes back and then go cowardly go throw rocks through their windows. Because you are weak. And dishonest. Just like Russia.
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He's a fuckwit who is doing his best to finish off anything good about the Kennedy legacy.
