Are you finally with her? The Hillary Clinton paradox- Ignore Hillary Clinton at your own peril

[Butler1000]

So Biden is seeking war with Iran by supporting Israel?
Something Trump would never have done (since your whole argument was how Biden was going to start all these wars.)



Ah! You've finally switched sides on the Ukraine war then?
Biden provoked it after all, just like Russia said?



What thought process?
That Israel and Biden were going to attack Iran as soon as they got Saudia Arabia's permission?



"The recession".
I see.
So it is a guarantee there will be one, reality just hasn't cooperated yet?



Got it.
Biden's been seeding these wars, both of which you oppose now?

Throughout this blabbery is you assuming things work in a USA vacuum. Instead of just also realizing that the MIC can take advantage of circumstances as well to do their thing.

And no, I still support Ukraine. Don't be silly. But the stale mate has gone on for a long time. And there has been a lot if money gone missing. Whats wrong with criticism about that while still supporting the nation?

Oct 7 was intended to derail the peace treaty with Saudi Arabia and Israel. The reason for that is it clears the way for SA to finish off the Houthis to continue on to Iran. Its a Sunni vs Shia thing. SA would rather live beside Jews than allow heretics to continue to live. The Palestinians are not welcome because they, bespote being Sunni, allowed Shia controlled Hamas to take over. Islam is not monolithic. They hate Bashir's Alawites as well. Hence Iran Allies. So no, not "permission". For a guy who claims to say the world is so complex, you sure are myopic in understanding of the world outside of a Western perspective.

Reality just may be coming. The traditional time line is 11 months after interest rate stabilization. Look it up.

All we heard was Trump would start WW3. Have we been closer in recent memory than under Biden? Either the President holds that much power or he doesn't. But a President seen as weak can be a factor in the decision making of a regime. Look what Ecuador did to Mexico. The story was post WW2 "norms" would fall under Trump. Now we have two cases of Vienna convention violations under Biden. So is he weak, or is the whole narrative against Trump False?

Year isn't over.

 

[Butler1000]

Was it a "should Clinton replace Biden" poll?
Because she should get a fantastically low score there (along with just about everyone else).

Hillary Clinton Favorability, 1993–2019

One of the longest runs in polling

medium.com

 

[silentkisser]

War in Syria.

Totally a possibility. And, I will also say, she could have fucked the COVID response just like Trump, but the likelihood is less...

 

[silentkisser]

Highly doubtful if Hil would have sucked up to Vlad Putin or Kim Jong Un and Stormy Daniels would be just another very talented porn star...

I'm not going to say she would be perfect, but I am saying she would be less chaotic and poorly prepared like the Trump administration. I'm sure she would have made some mistakes here and there, like every president. But, she also wouldn't blow up diplomatic relations with allies or even stare at the eclipse...lol

 

[silentkisser]

She would have had a good COVID response, I think, but it still would have been devastating given the global nature of the thing.
She could well have lost her re-election bid based on that response though.
No matter what, the GOP would have branded her a failure for it, I expect.

You're 100% right on that. However, I say and still believe that if Trump didn't fuck up COVID, he probably would still be president. I think if he put on his big boy pants and actually acted presidential, things would have been different. Look how so many MAGA idiots became anti-vaxx or refused to mask. If Trump did it, would they follow him? I mean, they bought Truth Social stock, so I'm willing to bet that we wouldn't have seen the anti-mask shit. If probably would have saved thousands of lives.

 

[richaceg]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1777069457971749298

Gaza and the palestinians would be in a lot worse predicament had Hilary won 2016....a lot more... They were better during Trump and got worse during Biden...it was no secret who the democrats back....you can mull it over with the rest of the lefties, but we all know the democrats and republicans will always be on the side of Israel....

 

[Butler1000]

Totally a possibility. And, I will also say, she could have fucked the COVID response just like Trump, but the likelihood is less...

He didn't delay on funding research. Fucked up the optics. But as I said before, it was the Governors who actually set the distancing and closing rules. I'm not sure where he fucked up in terms of real policy decisions.

 

[Frankfooter]

No.
He said being forced to choose between Biden and Trump means the system has failed and should be overthrown.
Which is big talk from a comedian who is an Australian and doesn't have to deal with any of it.



"The US System should be overthrown" said by someone in another country with no stake in it and no intent to do anything about it is pretty easy to dismiss, actually.
The only people currently in a position to do it is Trump, and anyone who thinks overthrowing the US just to get to get Trump isn't someone who was ever on my side, no were they?



Because he is quite clear that it is about exactly that.
Biden did something he doesn't like - Biden needs to be punished.

People who point out that doing this isn't going to get him anything else good he says he cares about are "shaming" him and make him VERY MAD and he feels they can't tell him how to respond.

And he is right.
If Punishing Biden is more important to you, you are allowed to believe that. (I mean, it doesn't matter for you or him, neither of you are Americans.)
But getting mad at people pointing out that it isn't really a helpful response if you care about Palestinians (or really anything else) is just too bad.
You aren't allowed to pretend you can't be criticized.



But I'm not trying to defend genocide and you aren't trying to stop it. (Neither is this guy.)



Of course.
But that's not what is being proposed here.
Making sure Biden loses and is "punished" for what he did is the point.
If that accomplishes nothing to actually help Palestine, that's fine.
At least it hurt Biden and that is emotionally satisfying to you. (And this guy.)

That I want more than a cathartic "fuck you Biden!" when I vote has to do with the simple fact that I don't view voting as an emotional outlet.

You're lecturing again from the assumption that your political views are superior and everyone should listen to them.
The entire idea of politics is that everyone has different ideas and you need to listen to them and respond, not to tell them they are wrong to hold those views and that not voting for either candidate is punishing one of them.

Not voting for someone is not 'punishing' them, its just not 'rewarding' them for acts you find illegal, immoral and unsupportable.
Voting is a reward, but not voting for someone is not 'punishment' unless you think everyone was going to vote for Biden. Its just saying you cannot support a politician.

 

[silentkisser]

He didn't delay on funding research. Fucked up the optics. But as I said before, it was the Governors who actually set the distancing and closing rules. I'm not sure where he fucked up in terms of real policy decisions.

Yes, thankfully he got funding for research straight away. But, as the commander and chief, he did not take a leadership position. He did not listen to his experts. He downplayed EVERYTHING, even when he was actually deathly ill with COVID. You're telling me that if he told DeSantis and company to get in line for the greater good, that they would not listen? That's the point. He didn't do anything that would have mitigated the death toll. Now, as others have said, people would die regardless of who was president. However, it is safe to say that someone who took this seriously from the get go, like December 2019, would have been prepared and bette equipped to respond to the crisis.

 

[Butler1000]

Yes, thankfully he got funding for research straight away. But, as the commander and chief, he did not take a leadership position. He did not listen to his experts. He downplayed EVERYTHING, even when he was actually deathly ill with COVID. You're telling me that if he told DeSantis and company to get in line for the greater good, that they would not listen? That's the point. He didn't do anything that would have mitigated the death toll. Now, as others have said, people would die regardless of who was president. However, it is safe to say that someone who took this seriously from the get go, like December 2019, would have been prepared and bette equipped to respond to the crisis.

DeSantis wouldn't have listened to Trump, or any President. Florida wanted to be open for snowbirds and tourists. He wouldn't have shut things down no matter what.

And no one in the world took it seriously in December, except the law makers who adjusted their stock portfolios. A few vague things were coming out. Hell I chose to go to Vegas Superbowl weekend that Febuary because no one was reporting it a serious yet.

Look at Trudeau and how they had allowed the PPE to expire and not be replaced. But the scientific community had continued research dating back to SARS and MERS with the new vaccine tech. That's what saved us.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[silentkisser]

DeSantis wouldn't have listened to Trump, or any President. Florida wanted to be open for snowbirds and tourists. He wouldn't have shut things down no matter what.

And no one in the world took it seriously in December, except the law makers who adjusted their stock portfolios. A few vague things were coming out. Hell I chose to go to Vegas Superbowl weekend that Febuary because no one was reporting it a serious yet.

Look at Trudeau and how they had allowed the PPE to expire and not be replaced. But the scientific community had continued research dating back to SARS and MERS with the new vaccine tech. That's what saved us.

Hindsight is 20/20.

First, I will agree with you that nobody really thought it would happen. But Trump also gutted a task force on infectious diseases that Obama started. It might have made a difference. As for DeSantis, I think he would not have been as bombastic against things if Trump and the Feds outlined the plan. They didn't do that and defered to the various states. Basically, Trump did not lead. That is the entire point of this. He didn't want to make the hard decisions that a leader needs to to be successful. And, as I've said, if he rose to that challenge, there is a very good chance he would have been re-elected. I mean, George W. Bush was not very popular before 9/11. Many said he'd be a one-term president like his dad. But, rightly or wrongly, he showed leadership in that crisis, rose to the challenge, and was re-elected. Leadership means something, and people know it.

 

[Valcazar]

Throughout this blabbery is you assuming things work in a USA vacuum. Instead of just also realizing that the MIC can take advantage of circumstances as well to do their thing.

Oh.
So none of this has anything to do with Trump or Biden and is all controlled by other powers and the election of President doesn't matter?

So this has nothing to do with your belief Biden is a warmonger, since none of that matters anyway.

And no, I still support Ukraine. Don't be silly.

I will freely admit I fully expected you to have turned by now.
My working theory is that you are personally affected by the Ukraine situation somehow.

But the stale mate has gone on for a long time. And there has been a lot if money gone missing. Whats wrong with criticism about that while still supporting the nation?

None at all, but you didn't give any criticism of money going missing.
You said " ... the massive money going to Ukraine also appeased the Military Industrial Complex for funding."

Oct 7 was intended to derail the peace treaty with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

I agree that was part of it.

The reason for that is it clears the way for SA to finish off the Houthis to continue on to Iran. Its a Sunni vs Shia thing. SA would rather live beside Jews than allow heretics to continue to live.

That appears to be your theory of the case from what you said in that earlier post.
And, of course, that is why war would happen under Biden, since presumably none of that happens under Trump.
Only now you're saying that whole argument for preferring Trump is moot because the US president has no effect on this at all.

The Palestinians are not welcome because they, bespote being Sunni, allowed Shia controlled Hamas to take over. Islam is not monolithic. They hate Bashir's Alawites as well. Hence Iran Allies. So no, not "permission". For a guy who claims to say the world is so complex, you sure are myopic in understanding of the world outside of a Western perspective.

Yes, I know you think you are actually saying "there are multiple complex factors at work and the US president and view of national interests are only part of that". But since that would undermine your entire "Biden and the Democrats are warmongers and Trump is obviously not" argument you did for years, I am just going to point out how much your story just changes depending on what is convenient to justify your priors at the moment.

You suddenly pretending you think in terms of complex international interactions is kind of hilarious.

Reality just may be coming. The traditional time line is 11 months after interest rate stabilization. Look it up.

Can't say I found anything that is definitely what you are talking about. You're going to have to be more specific concerning what you are referencing.

All we heard was Trump would start WW3. Have we been closer in recent memory than under Biden? Either the President holds that much power or he doesn't.

You should make up your mind what you believe about that.

But a President seen as weak can be a factor in the decision making of a regime. Look what Ecuador did to Mexico. The story was post WW2 "norms" would fall under Trump. Now we have two cases of Vienna convention violations under Biden. So is he weak, or is the whole narrative against Trump False?

Back to "the world isn't complex at all, see my simple false binary!" I see.

 

[Valcazar]

Hillary Clinton Favorability, 1993–2019

One of the longest runs in polling

medium.com

That's unresponsive. It's about her trends until 2019.
That was over 4 years ago.
You made a claim about her polling during the current election.

 

[Butler1000]

That's unresponsive. It's about her trends until 2019.
That was over 4 years ago.
You made a claim about her polling during the current election.

You think its gotten better? I remember seeing a few posted hypotheticals. Just as shit.

 

[Butler1000]

Oh.
So none of this has anything to do with Trump or Biden and is all controlled by other powers and the election of President doesn't matter?

So this has nothing to do with your belief Biden is a warmonger, since none of that matters anyway.



I will freely admit I fully expected you to have turned by now.
My working theory is that you are personally affected by the Ukraine situation somehow.



None at all, but you didn't give any criticism of money going missing.
You said " ... the massive money going to Ukraine also appeased the Military Industrial Complex for funding."



I agree that was part of it.



That appears to be your theory of the case from what you said in that earlier post.
And, of course, that is why war would happen under Biden, since presumably none of that happens under Trump.
Only now you're saying that whole argument for preferring Trump is moot because the US president has no effect on this at all.



Yes, I know you think you are actually saying "there are multiple complex factors at work and the US president and view of national interests are only part of that". But since that would undermine your entire "Biden and the Democrats are warmongers and Trump is obviously not" argument you did for years, I am just going to point out how much your story just changes depending on what is convenient to justify your priors at the moment.

You suddenly pretending you think in terms of complex international interactions is kind of hilarious.



Can't say I found anything that is definitely what you are talking about. You're going to have to be more specific concerning what you are referencing.



You should make up your mind what you believe about that.



Back to "the world isn't complex at all, see my simple false binary!" I see.

Fuck are you myopic and obtuse. I say its complex. You use simplistic arguments. Yes the USA warmongers. As a matter of foreign policy. In fact the USA has been at war for all but 16 years of its existence. Look it up.

The rest is just either opinion we disagree on, or you just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Valcazar]

You're 100% right on that. However, I say and still believe that if Trump didn't fuck up COVID, he probably would still be president. I think if he put on his big boy pants and actually acted presidential, things would have been different. Look how so many MAGA idiots became anti-vaxx or refused to mask. If Trump did it, would they follow him? I mean, they bought Truth Social stock, so I'm willing to bet that we wouldn't have seen the anti-mask shit. If probably would have saved thousands of lives.

He tried to pivot to saying the vaccine is a good thing recently, but the crowd wouldn't go for it.
That's the thing with Trump - if it isn't something he is personally invested in, he is like a human A/B test. He says whatever until he gets a reaction and then he pivots based on that reaction.

So yes, I *do* think he could have blunted the anti-vax and anti-covid bullshit if he hadn't leaned into it.
But since he thought from the beginning that COVID made him look bad, he had to deny it and go the way he did.
Doing a tough job where you would still have lots of people die and look bad and had no guarantee of success isn't something he would want to do and that is what all public health work is.

 

[Valcazar]

Gaza and the palestinians would be in a lot worse predicament had Hilary won 2016....a lot more... They were better during Trump and got worse during Biden...it was no secret who the democrats back....you can mull it over with the rest of the lefties, but we all know the democrats and republicans will always be on the side of Israel....

Is Trump supposed to not be on the side of Israel today?

 

[Valcazar]

You're lecturing again from the assumption that your political views are superior and everyone should listen to them.
The entire idea of politics is that everyone has different ideas and you need to listen to them and respond, not to tell them they are wrong to hold those views and that not voting for either candidate is punishing one of them.

That you still think what I am saying is that no one is allowed to have a different opinion than me is a sign of how locked into your thinking you are here.
I'm sorry that people pointing out the flaws in your (or this guys) reasoning is so upsetting to you. Maybe you should just put me on ignore.

Not voting for someone is not 'punishing' them, its just not 'rewarding' them for acts you find illegal, immoral and unsupportable.
Voting is a reward, but not voting for someone is not 'punishment' unless you think everyone was going to vote for Biden. Its just saying you cannot support a politician.

Yes.
That you have a childish and limited understanding of voting has been well established.
Not sure why we are retreading ground we already covered.

But yes, when his point is that Biden has to lose for his position on Gaza then he is saying that Biden should be punished electorally for his position on Gaza.

 

[Valcazar]

First, I will agree with you that nobody really thought it would happen. But Trump also gutted a task force on infectious diseases that Obama started. It might have made a difference.

It would have.

As for DeSantis, I think he would not have been as bombastic against things if Trump and the Feds outlined the plan. They didn't do that and defered to the various states. Basically, Trump did not lead. That is the entire point of this.

Yes.
The context in which various actions are taken has to be included.
Would DeSantis have wanted to push for opening faster?
Of course.
Would his options for doing so have been different in the context of a different federal response?
Of course.

 

[Valcazar]

You think its gotten better? I remember seeing a few posted hypotheticals. Just as shit.

Very possible.
As I said in my original response, especially if the question was from late 2023 or early 2024 and it was "Should Hilary Clinton replace Joe Biden as the Dem nominee" I would expect her numbers to be in the single digits.

Only thing I can find that is actual favorability data that claims to be recent has her back with higher positives over negatives. (+12%)
I don't know how reliable I would find that polling, though.