1967 Borders and The Palestinian scam

[ali90]

Absolutely. I looked at that video and saw Israeli security forces intervening to defend his rights. Are you dumb enough to fail to distinguish between the state, and some nuts on the street? The Israeli state intervened there on the correct side, upholding his right to film, and to pass on the street unmolested by the wing nuts. In fact, when some of those wing nuts attempted to get violent with him, the security forces responded decisively to defend him from their interference.

Good example of the sorts of guaranteed freedom you can expect from the Israeli state, as opposed to, say, Hamas.

Oh btw did you notice the sign? "Please do not pass through our neighborhood with Immodest clothes" and then it goes on to explain what 'modest' clothes are. I wonder what's going to happen to a woman who wears a short skirt in the hot desert heat. How can you talk in support of Israel providing freedom of speech when people aren't even allowed to wear what they want? And notice how it's pointing only towards women and girls, and not men. Yeah and the police instead of containing the mob, escorted the journalist away from the scene.

Now I agree that other states in the middle east have regimes that oppress their population as basketcase has mentioned. They do not allow freedom of speech and have restrictions on what people wear, and a plethora of other problems... but Israel is no better.

Jews all over the world remember and express sorrow for the holocaust. They should be allowed to, it was a terrible crime. But if Arab Israelis and Palestinians want to remember the Nakba day, Israeli government places bans on them. They aren't allowed to protest or even gather in numbers. They are harassed by Mossad. Political parties that do not follow the doctrine set by the Knesset are banned. "The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel" is a joint document put together by prominent Arab citizens of Israel where Arab citizens state that they are considered second-grade citizens. Mordechai Vanunu who revealed details of Israel's - WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION PROGRAM (WMD), was lured to Italy by a female agent of Mossad and then kidnapped and taken to Israel where he was jailed. What kind of state does this?

All I'm saying is, every country in the Middle East has their vices. Israel is no different and shares most if not all these vices with its region. Idiotic comments like give Israel the entire middle east hold no value. Israel is not secular state and I find it hard to believe that democracy can exist where religion prevails. Case in point, India a democratic (although a bit corrupt) state. Pakistan, a failed democratic state because religion prevails.

 

[fuji]

Oh btw did you notice the sign? "Please do not pass through our neighborhood with Immodest clothes"

That sign was put up by some whack jobs, not by the Israel government. Israel has lots of beaches with women in tiny bikinis, and women walking around everywhere in low cut shirts, short skirts, tight pants, whatever. The whack jobs don't go to those places, and they've secluded themselves into one little area and ASKED others to respect that. No law in Israel requires you to respect that--you could organize a "slut walk" through their area and you would have a right to do that--the police would no doubt deploy to contain the violence that would no doubt result--but you would have that right in Israel. You would NOT have that right in Gaza City. Hamas would kill you, if you tried to organize a "slut walk" there.

Most people would probably respect the wishes of the whack jobs, who have made it pretty easy to avoid going through their area really. You don't HAVE to, you can be an asshole if you want, but why would you want to? It's a lot easier to respect their wishes and wear your short skirt and tight pants in your own neighbourhood, and not make a point of parading through theirs.

How can you talk in support of Israel providing freedom of speech when people aren't even allowed to wear what they want?

Except that you do have a right to wear whatever you want in Israel. So you are just flat out wrong.

 

[basketcase]

Hey fuji, let grog and ali complain about the evils of Israel while staying quiet on how things are in the rest of the middle east (thousands killed in Syria, Libya, the woman arrested for daring to drive). After all, Israel has its vices such as religious freedoms while the rest just have oppression and corruption which are nowhere near as evil.

 

[groggy]

I've already talked a bit about that. Had two trips in the last two months to an Arabic country, spent some time working there and here with Algerians, Egyptians, Iranians, Tunisians, Syrians, Lebanese.....
The Arab spring shows promise, though it is quite likely that there will just be a new gang of despots. Libya is a mess, Syria a disaster, Egypt and Tunisia could come around.
The difference is people will admit in those countries that rights are trampled on, while you and Fuji will just make excuses for Israel killing civilians and gangs or racist fundamentalists.

There is no debate that the middle east is a mess, there is still a debate here on how messed up Israel is.
Has anyone here read any of the Globe's questions to Hamas?
Those are quite interesting, and the answers are probably much closer to Hamas' present positions then Fuji's 'if you wear a bikini Hamas will kill you' type of comments.
For example:

Q: Why does Hamas treat women as second-class citizens?

-- David Pollack, T. Justin Powzy

A: Hamas is made up of Muslims and we as Muslims live by our holy text, the Koran. The Koran speaks equally of both men and women, which we fully respect. In Gaza, women work in all sectors of society from government to engineering. We do not practice any gender discrimination and work hard to build the capacities of our women.

Q: What can Canadians do to help bring about a two-state solution to the conflict?

-- Cory Nicholls, J.M. Deagle

A: The international community has been shamefully supportive of Israel’s continuing occupation of Palestine. It is imperative that the citizens of each country tell their politicians that they are unhappy with their foreign policy concerning Palestine. Every Canadian citizen who supports human rights should write to their local representative and demand that Israel be made to comply with international law.

Q: Do you believe that there exists a Jewish people with roots in the Holy Land? Shouldn’t they be allowed a state?

-- Mark Surchin of Toronto, Eric Beckerman, Jon Kerner

A: Historically speaking, the Holy Land has been inhabited by members of the three Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity and Judaism). However, the Zionist project usurped this land in order to establish a Jewish state. The indigenous people who were living on the land were forcibly removed from their homes in 1948 and they remain as refugees waiting to return as set out by UN resolution 194. We as Palestinians cannot comprehend why Israel insists that there must be a Jewish state when the land has been home to all three religions over the long course of history.

Q: Why doesn’t Hamas reject violence? Do you really think you can win by fighting?

-- Yves Crepeaum, Sackville, N.B., Laurence Knight

A: The Palestinians have been forced into engaging with a legitimate struggle due to the current occupation. The Palestinians must continue in their struggle to liberate their land from the occupying force. The UN resolutions have protected the right for those who lose their homes and land to defend their rights.

Q: Why does your Covenant advocate killing Jews, and your text books teach children to hate?

-- Jillian York, Ran Ukashi of Winnipeg, Christopher Slatter, Jonathan Lampert

A: The Covenant does not advocate the murder of Jews, but for the Palestinians to defend themselves against the continuing occupation. This is a direct reaction to the aggressive, expansionist Zionist project and the growing displacement of Palestinians from their homes. Children are not taught to hate. If anything teaches our children to hate, it is the daily events of the occupation. Sanctions, occupation and the siege have impacted on our children's thinking.

 

[Aardvark154]

Q: Do you believe that there exists a Jewish people with roots in the Holy Land? Shouldn’t they be allowed a state?

-- Mark Surchin of Toronto, Eric Beckerman, Jon Kerner

A: Historically speaking, the Holy Land has been inhabited by members of the three Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity and Judaism). However, the Zionist project usurped this land in order to establish a Jewish state. The indigenous people who were living on the land were forcibly removed from their homes in 1948 and they remain as refugees waiting to return as set out by UN resolution 194. We as Palestinians cannot comprehend why Israel insists that there must be a Jewish state when the land has been home to all three religions over the long course of history.

In other words "Stupid liberal Westerner are you truely stupid enough to think we will honestly anwer this question! Read our lips we will drive them into the sea"

Q: Why does your Covenant advocate killing Jews, and your text books teach children to hate?

-- Jillian York, Ran Ukashi of Winnipeg, Christopher Slatter, Jonathan Lampert

A: The Covenant does not advocate the murder of Jews, but for the Palestinians to defend themselves against the continuing occupation.

"Damn, you bastards actually read our Covenant! Since we refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist what do you believe should be done to the Zionist Jewish dog occupiers!"

 

[basketcase]

I notice the question "will you accept a permanent peace with Israel if a Palestinian state is created in the West Bank and Gaza" wasn't asked. I guess they have answered it enough times already. Until they change their minds on that one or the people abandon Hamas as a valid political entity, peace talks aren't exactly useful.


p.s. He also refused to answer the question about teaching hate or explain why terror attacks against civilians are acceptable.

p.p.s. It's always interesting to see the completely different statements that Hamas makes to the English speaking media are from their arabic statements to their people.

 

[groggy]

In keeping with this thread:
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?340229-Why-you-can-t-win-an-argument-on-the-internet!

I wouldn`t expect you to accept Hamas` word. I fully expect you to go back and find some 20 year old quote that contradicts it or some other poor translation and then go back to harping on how they are terrorists who need to be `exterminated` to quote your pleasant compatriot, Roadshuttle.

But just for interests sake, Basketcase, here`s the first question and answer on the page, which I didn`t copy over. Thought it was too much already.


Question: Do you think it’s realistic to have one state where all the people of your region would live together?
-- Brian Fehst of Whitby, Ont., Hugh Jones of Toronto, Diane McLoughlin

Answer: As Palestinians, we are not opposed to the land being inhabited by all members of the major religions. This land is inextricably linked to the Abrahamic faiths and as such has been home to followers from these religions throughout history. As history proves, Muslims have acted as faithful and inclusive custodians of the land where all faiths are free to practice their religions.

That to me, sounds more reasonable then the policies of Israeli`s.

 

[Aardvark154]

As history proves, Muslims have acted as faithful and inclusive custodians of the land where all faiths are free to practice their religions.[/I]

That to me, sounds more reasonable then the policies of Israeli's.

So what occured in Jerusalem from 1948 to 1967 doesn't count for the above?

 

[toguy5252]

So what occured in Jerusalem from 1948 to 1967 doesn't count for the above?

LOL..Not sure what history books he is reading. Somebody forgot to tell him about the Sunnis killing Shia and vice versa and the violence against the Copts etc. Of course the Farhud was an example of the great faithfulness and inclusiveness of the Muslims.

 

[fuji]

Has anyone here read any of the Globe's questions to Hamas?

The questions are bang on. Their answers are lies. They say things like "The Covenant does not advocate the murder of Jews, but for the Palestinians to defend themselves against the continuing occupation" but then when that pregnant woman was murdered by some thugs on the road they put up on their Arabic website that those thugs were heroes. So.... lies.

 

[fuji]

Answer: As Palestinians, we are not opposed to the land being inhabited by all members of the major religions. This land is inextricably linked to the Abrahamic faiths and as such has been home to followers from these religions throughout history. As history proves, Muslims have acted as faithful and inclusive custodians of the land where all faiths are free to practice their religions.

Meanwhile the ONLY country in the Middle East where all religions can be freely practiced is Israel. It's nice that Hamas has said that, all the while purging their territory of Christians and Jews.

 

[groggy]

Meanwhile the ONLY country in the Middle East where all religions can be freely practiced is Israel. It's nice that Hamas has said that, all the while purging their territory of Christians and Jews.

Those are pretty much the answers I expected.
Denial, ignorance of change and an outright lie.

And Fuji, according to wikipedia, Israel has very low freedom to practice religion, on par with Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan and Somalia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religiousfreedom.png

Don't know what you're smoking in your pipe, but you might want to find a new supplier.

 

[fuji]

Groggy do you seriously expect anyone to believe that if you opened up a synagogue in Gaza City that you would live through the day without military protection?

I don't know where you dug that png up, but here is what Wikipedia has to say about religion in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

 

[groggy]

If you read the wiki article or report, you'd realize that while there are supposed to be laws protecting religious freedom, they are not enforced enough in Israel, both in the occupied territories and in Israel. There was a mosque burnt in the West Bank last week, for example. I'm sure the violence is on both sides, but that still puts Israel on par with Afghanistan for religious freedom. Your statement was wrong.

 

[fuji]

The West Bank is not Israel. Sorry. You lose.

 

[toguy5252]

Groggy do you seriously expect anyone to believe that if you opened up a synagogue in Gaza City that you would live through the day without military protection?

I don't know where you dug that png up, but here is what Wikipedia has to say about religion in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

I think now he is just playing with you. He cannot seriously believe what he is saying.

 

[basketcase]

...
I wouldn't expect you to accept Hamas' word. I fully expect you to go back and find some 20 year old quote that contradicts it or some other poor translation and then go back ...

Well how about these, all from the past year. You may notice that the Arabic is clearly audible so if you or ali take the time to listen, you can comment for yourself on the accuracy of the translations.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2949.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2934.htm

Following are excerpts from an interview with Hamas MP and cleric Yunis Al-Astal, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on May 11, 2011:

Yunis Al-Astal: The [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang.

[…]


All the predators, all the birds of prey, all the dangerous reptiles and insects, and all the lethal bacteria are far less dangerous than the Jews.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2897.htm

Following are excerpts from a Friday sermon delivered by former Hamas minister of culture 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on April 8, 2011:

'Atallah Abu Al-Subh: Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

[…]

The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

[…]

Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

[…]

The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2734.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2729.htm

Following are excerpts from a public address delivered by Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, in a rally marking the 25th anniversary of Hamas, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV, December 15, 2010:

Ismail Haniya: Let me reassure you, brothers and sisters, that the occupation has no future on the land of Palestine. When I say "the land of Palestine," I am not referring [only] to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem. When I say that the occupation has no future on the land of Palestine, I refer to Palestine from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, and from Rosh Hanikra to Rafah.

The occupation will not survive on this land. Never!

 

[basketcase]

If you read the wiki article or report, you'd realize that while there are supposed to be laws protecting religious freedom, they are not enforced enough in Israel, both in the occupied territories and in Israel. There was a mosque burnt in the West Bank last week, for example. I'm sure the violence is on both sides, but that still puts Israel on par with Afghanistan for religious freedom. Your statement was wrong.

There was also a synagogue trashed. In both cases, the government has loudly denouced them.

 

[basketcase]

If you read the wiki article or report, you'd realize that while there are supposed to be laws protecting religious freedom, they are not enforced enough in Israel, both in the occupied territories and in Israel. There was a mosque burnt in the West Bank last week, for example. I'm sure the violence is on both sides, but that still puts Israel on par with Afghanistan for religious freedom. Your statement was wrong.

Funny but I didn't see that when I read the pdf of the original report. They gave two reasons for the ranking. One was the high level of hostilities between different religions (which only an idiot would place soley on the heads of the Jews) and that access to holy sites is often limited. On the second topic, that includes the PA closing/limiting access to Jewish holy sites in the West Bank and Israel restricting access to Haram Ash-Sharif during periods of heightened violence. They also do refer to the influence that orthodox Jewish authorities have a monopoly on Jewish religious matters.


p.s. The Palestinians score excludes anything to do with Hamas in Gaza. Wonder how that would influence the score?

 

[ali90]

Well how about these, all from the past year. You may notice that the Arabic is clearly audible so if you or ali take the time to listen, you can comment for yourself on the accuracy of the translations.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2949.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2934.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2897.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2734.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/239/0/2729.htm

I find it hilarious when people quote from memritv.org, especially because it's an Israeli run media research institute. MEMRI was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, former acting head and adviser on Arab affairs to the Israeli government, former head of the Israeli Civil Administration in Judea and Samaria Area (West Bank), former Counterterrorism adviser to prime ministers Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin, former delegate to the Israeli peace negotiations with Syria in Madrid and Washington and another Israeli Meyrav Wurmser. Great list of intellectual brains from 'all over the world' who can induce their 'viewpoint' upon the public. Memri is a perfect example of why media causes as much harm than good, when it's biased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Reception

Halim Barakat (an Arab novelist) described MEMRI as a "a propaganda organization dedicated to representing Arabs and Muslims as anti-semites." Barakat claims an essay he wrote for the Al-Hayat Daily of London titled The Wild Beast that Zionism Created: Self-Destruction, was mistranslated by MEMRI and retitled as Jews Have Lost Their Humanity. Barakat further stated "Every time I wrote Zionism, MEMRI replaced the word by Jew or Judaism. They want to give the impression that I’m not criticizing Israeli policy, but that what I’m saying is anti-Semitic".

In 2007, CNN correspondent Atika Shubert and Arabic translators accused MEMRI of mistranslating portions of a Palestinian children's television programme.
"Media watchdog MEMRI translates one caller as saying - quote - 'We will annihilate the Jews,"' said Shubert. "But, according to several Arabic speakers used by CNN, the caller actually says 'The Jews are killing us."

The Washington based Institute for Research Middle Eastern Policy has criticized MEMRI for funding that is too highly concentrated (three donors account for over 58% of MEMRI’s income), lack of peer review and a reactive, tactically driven research agenda.

I could go on... but I'll let you read the rest from the link I've posted.