2004 Election debate

[RogerRabbit]

Who do you think won the election debate tonight and why?

Background:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...799&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

 

[xarir]

You need a "none of the above" option in the poll. Overall I found the English debate quite tiresome. I missed the French debate though; maybe it was better.

For me the debate didn't really change my opinion on who I would vote for, and I was mostly undecided but somewhat leaning towards Liberal.

 

[Tugger]

I can't say who won, but I would say that Paul Martin Lost.

I am disappointed how he avoided answering every question.

The rest of them at least admitted what they stood for.

 

[RogerRabbit]

martin took a beating?

You need a "none of the above" option in the poll. Overall I found the English debate quite tiresome. I missed the French debate though; maybe it was better.

Good point!

If the moderator can add that option, it would be appreciated, as the option/ modification is unavailable to me.

I agree, it was very tiring, mind numbing, headache of a debate, but martin did not have very much new or meaningful to say...kinda sad!



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1087300334960_158/?hub=TopStories

 

[galt]

I voted for harper. Not because he was the best debater on the floor but because he knew when to keep his mouth closed and made the most gains. As much as I despise Jack he was truly a pitbull tonight and was by far the best debater. Jack knows that he won't sway conservative voters or those undecided between the Liberals and Conservatives. Layton knows he has to take the soft support from the left side of the Liberal party. He went after Martin and, frankly, embarassed Paul, he was able to highlight Martin's arrogance and how his attack adds (even those directed at Harper) are simply more Liberal lies

For the most part Harper took the high road and let Jack go after Martin and torpedo Martin's record on ethics, health care, child care and a host of other issues

 

[dickydoem]

I know that I lost........ two hours of my time.

 

[Meesh]

I think they should all be embarassed.

Frankly imho there are no viable candidates as leader. They all frighten me.

Given the available choices it is not at all surprising that the expecation is for the lowest voter turnout ever. The vast silent majority is stating loudly that there is no one deserving to lead the country. That they are fed up with self-serving, lying politicians.

Problem is - no one is listening.

 

[galt]

He made a good point about how it was he that got the investigation going on the sponsership scandel - he could have ignored it like the former PM did - but he got shouted down.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.....Martin started this investigation for one reason only...because he had to....All the other leaders did a great job of reminding us that Martin also promised he would get to the bottom of it BEFORE calling an election (yet another Liberal lie)...Layton and Deuceppe also made it very clear that the proper thing for Martin to do would be to release the report showing where the money went. We all know that would be political suicide because that money is probably being used by the Liberal party today to fund the campaign.

The other thing that we need to consider is the impact that this election is having on Paul Martin's status within the Fiberal party. This was a man who took the reins of a party with support in the mid 40% range and has watched it erode to steadily. Will this make PM the PM a lame duck leader in a minority government should the Liberals form one? Would he have the confidence of his caucous? He had no need to call an election but wanted to affirm his correnation for his own ego....could this be Peterson syndrome at work?

The other very interesting side note on this one was Jack Layton's opening remark about some Conservative hidden agenda and then, throughout the course of the debate, repeatedly stated that at least Harper and the Conservatives make their positions clear whereas the Liberals refuse to address most of the issues put to them.

 

[Stoo]

Isn't Saddam looking for work?

Frankly imho there are no viable candidates as leader. They all frighten me.

Meesh, this sums up my feeling exactly. What's even more disheartening, is that I don't even have a decent local candidate in my riding. In the past, I could always fall back to the local guy... but in this case, that isn't an option either.

I moved last year and I'm not on a voters list. I might just leave it that way... but then I wouldn't be allowed to bit*h about everything, would I?

 

[galt]

Re: Isn't Saddam looking for work?

I moved last year and I'm not on a voters list. I might just leave it that way... but then I wouldn't be allowed to bit*h about everything, would I?

Stoo get on the list and go and decline your ballot...DON'T SPOIL IT....when ballots are counted they are put in sealed envelopes. One for each party, one for all spoiled ballots and one for declined ballots.

Most people believe that spoiling your ballot is the same thing...it is not...spoiled ballots are not counted but they may come up for review in a recount. Declined ballots are counted.

An interesting thing that most Canadians do not know is that if 1/3 of the ballots in a local race are declined then that particular race is declared null and void and a by election must be held (usually with new candidates)

All you need to do to decline your ballot is go to your polling station and state to the officer that you would like to decline your ballot.

It's sad that more people choose to not vote instead of exercising this option. If the disenfranchised or apathetic majority of people that don't vote did this we may have a very different political landscape today.

Fringe benefit of this is that you still get to bit*h with credibility

 

[sweet guy]

Harper is the iceman. Obviously he learns his lesson well from Stockwell Day, who basically got character assessination last time during the federal election (mostly due to Day's own making). He seems to be a Telfon conservative who can somehow withstand the scrutiny on his hidden social agendas.

The bottom line is the conservatives are the poor cousin of the Republican party- a poor cousin who the Dubya doesn't really care to know of. Those conservatives represents the people from the small town, bible "provinces" where the right to bear arms should be "amended" and included in the Charter and the "vast, albeit depleted significantly" oil reserves give them the right to flash their gums and lash out the "degenerate", "debachuary" urban Liberals.

Plus, how "diverse" the Conservatives members really are?

Maybe the Canadians are fed up and looking for anybody but the liberals. Problem is will the Canadians be better off?

Martin got hit by all sides. His spint doctors should be fired. He could be a good PM but the timings are all wrong. He got screwed by his imbecile team.

In retrospect, Martin should let Chertien retired in February just in time when Madame Fraser disclosed the sponsorship scandals. Let Chertien took the hit and after that when Martin took over, he could be more convincing to the Canadians that he's going to start a new regime.

Oh did I say he should not have the federal election this year?

I'm afraid he will be another John Turner (a closet progressive conservative or Red Tory). I don't think he will be another Kim Campbell. At least Canada still have surplus.

Sounds like Martin's liberals can be Al Gore's Democrats or hell John Kerry's Democrats too.

Layton is not a pitbull. He's more or like the taco bell, devil looking dog (Mexican or something). Sure what he says may be the "conscience" of average Canadians. I will see him as Ralph Nader's Canadian cousins. He will be the one who's going to spoil the party and cost the Liberals the votes, pretty much the same as Nader did to Al Gore in 2000.

Duceppe, well is he relevant to the rest of Canada? How fishy is that when a die-hard separtist decry the "corruption" of the "arch enemy"? In a twisted way, he should "thank" the Liberals for sending the Quebecois to the Bloc camps after the sponsorships scandals.

One thing for sure. This election should not end up as 2000 Presidential election. Among the "devils", the Liberals are relatively more mainstream.

And oh yeah fasten the seatbelt, it's going to be a hell of rollercoaster ride. When the dust settles towards the end of the year, if the conservatives win, prepare yourself for "reversal of fortune fiscally" and "higher alert vigilance".

 

[WhOiSyOdAdDy?]

Who won? who lost?... who cares?..after all, there will be another election in 4-5 years

 

[Goober Mcfly]

Anyone else notice that Jack Layton talks with his elbows cemented to his sides? That annoyed me along with his smirk, his incessant counting on his right hand with his boney fingers, and his policies.

Duceppe is a decent debater considering English isn't his first language. I thought it was funny when Layton and Duceppe were debating one-on-one with each other on issues they agreed on. Layton should have said something like "Well, we agree on this issue. I'm going to take an opportunity in my time allotment to have a good fart."

Martin was evasive, wimpy, wishy-washy, and obviously frustrated at certain points. Him snapping at Layton was priceless. Is that the kind of response you want from a PM? I don't think he actually listened to the answers of the other leaders. Did I mention he didn't answer one damned question asked of him?

Harper was the star, IMO. He was composed, Prime Ministerial, he didn't get frustrated, he attacked when needed, he admitted he was wrong on certain things (WMD, for example). He didn't dodge any issue, or any question. He may have given a wishy-washy position on things like abortion (anyone else notice that the word "abortion" wasn't ever used?) but I truly believe that his position IS wishy-washy on such issues. He stated his position on gay marriage while allowing for the fact that gay unions will be allowed, but not under the moniker "marriage". His example of using the not-withstanding clause for child porn was nuts on. Martin came off as saying he wouldn't even use the not-withstanding clause for that! I was thoroughly impressed with him.

My mind is made up.

 

[happygrump]

Most people believe that spoiling your ballot is the same thing...it is not...spoiled ballots are not counted but they may come up for review in a recount. Declined ballots are counted.

This is incorrect. In my work as a District Returning Officer, declined (deemed "rejected" in legal parlance) ballots are not counted, nor are spoiled ballots except insofar as they are tracked to ensure a balance between the number of votes cast and the number of votes left unused.

From Elections Canada website:
After the close of the polling stations, the deputy returning officer is required to open the ballot box and then open the inner envelopes and count the votes. Ballots are to be rejected if they were not supplied for the election, are not marked, are marked with a name other than the name of the candidate, are marked for more than one candidate, or have any writing or mark by which the elector could be identified...
(emphasis mine)
Also:

...if 1/3 of the ballots in a local race are declined then that particular race is declared null and void and a by election must be held (usually with new candidates)

Sorry, but there is no such law.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

I'm a conservative as you may surmise from my user-name. I will be voting for the Tories. I've read much of what Stephen Harper has said and written over the years - there is no hidden social conservative agenda. Harper is a fiscal conservative. He's clear on where he stands on issues. If you agree - vote for him, if you don't, don't.

I was actually impressed with the debate and the candidates. While it is a common mantra to proclaim that none of the candidates are any good, my suspicion is that most of the people making such claims did not participate in the candidate selection process in their local riding constituency and did not participate in the leadership selection process. But for the BQ, all of the parties held leadership conventions in the recent past. With the Liberals Martin's minions stopped the sale of new memberships to ensure he couldn't get outflanked by John Manley or Shiela Copps, but the other two parties held open leadership contests. Anyone was free to join the party and vote - or put his own hat in the ring and run for leadership.

I despise Paul Martin, and don't want to see him elected - but one must admit he was for the most part a competent Finance Minister and public administrator. He stammers when he speaks, but when it comes to action he has his record to stand on. Stephen Harper is probably the smartest leader in federal politics in any party since Trudeau. He lacks charisma a bit, but he is principled and straight forward. You may not like his positions, but he doesn't dodge the issues. What you see is what you get. Jack Layton is the brightest light the NDP has seen since Ed Broadbent. I think his ideas are whacked out, but he has had a long career of dedicated public service and he articulates his positions well. Duceppe IMO is the weakest of the leaders. I think the Bloc would have been better served by Yvon Lubier or Michel Gauthier. But the sharpest pencils in the sovereignist movement are in the PQ - which is normal considering that the BQ is essentially a provincial movement.

I understand the cynicism of voters, but I think we have a good crop of leaders in 2004 - but then I tend to be an optimist.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/E-2.01/index.html

The above is the actual text of the Elections Act, which trumps anything Elections Canada publishes or anything anyone (except for the Supreme Court) says.

Read the statute, there is no provision for "declining" ballots, nor is there any rule about invalidating an election with 1/3 "declined" ballots. As 'happygrump' mentioned, there is no such law.

 

[2cent]

Why bother with this poll? If you don't know that the majority here are conservatives, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[h_upmann]

I am a lifetime PROGRESSIVE Conservative. I voted against the "merger" and want nothing to do with the re-branded ReformAlliance. I will be holding my nose and voting Liberal for the first time in my (longish) life.

The debate was an embarassment to all Canadians. Layton was absolutely sickening. I will admit that Harper looked good compared to the other three. However, it's not Harper that scares me about the ReformAlliance, rather the lunatics that surround him. Out west, they're already talking about Harper selling out the Social Conservative wing of the "party".

 

[Tugger]

Why bother with this poll? If you don't know that the majority here are conservatives, you haven't been paying attention.

Just because most people on here are conservatives, doesn't mean that Harper won the debate.

If you read the question, it only askes who do you think won the debate.

I was hoping Paul Martin would have had more to say. I may vote for Harper now, because of Martin's lack of answers.

But just because I may vote for Harper this election, doesn't mean he won the debate.

I would say the true winner is that loud mouth, phoney prick, Jack Layton.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

I am a lifetime PROGRESSIVE Conservative. I voted against the "merger" and want nothing to do with the re-branded ReformAlliance. I will be holding my nose and voting Liberal for the first time in my (longish) life.

The debate was an embarassment to all Canadians. Layton was absolutely sickening. I will admit that Harper looked good compared to the other three. However, it's not Harper that scares me about the ReformAlliance, rather the lunatics that surround him. Out west, they're already talking about Harper selling out the Social Conservative wing of the "party".

The lunatics were all surrounding Stockwell Day. When Harper defeated Day for the leadership of the Alliance, he took care to keep the lunatics out of the inner circle. The only reason why the old Day people are making some rumblings out West is because they realise that even though they are on the brink of winning the election, the Stockwell Day social conservative movement has been marginalised. As Preston Manning used to say, "the bright light always attracts the bugs".