The format definitely needs some tweaking. Certain teams within a division never played against each other (DR-Puerto Rico, USA-Italy). Meaningless final games within a round used only for seeding in the next round. Korea and Japan will have met five times. According to Bud Lite, the WBC isn't going away and will eventually grow to 24 teams. Bad idea. Then again, when does Selig ever have a good idea? Or a clue, for that matter.
Anyone following the World Baseball Classic?
- Thread starter Toronto Passions
- Start date
In the Beg(inning)....
MLB calls it that because it was originally sponsored by a newspaper called THE NEW YORK WORLD. It could just as well been called "The Times Series" or "The Post Series". When the paper folded they obviously kept the title, seeing it does have a nice ring to it.pdson2 said:
That is an urban myth.Bridgeman said:
The series had a few different names including "Championship of the World" or "World's Championship Series." That was shortened through usage to "World's Series" and finally to "World Series."
Here are a couple of links that disprove this belief. Even wikipedia has no mention of it.
http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/name.htm
http://www.snopes.com/business/names/worldseries.asp
In the second link, there is even mention of a researcher from the Hall of Fame who refers to it as a myth. I used to believe this at one time too, until I found articles on the origin of the name.
ya...I bet someone in Boston might be looking for a guy like that...blueline said:Some MLB team should grab that Japanese pitcher who won the MVP award for the second time. He is wicked good.
I didn't watch one game of it. If Canada made it past the second game I likely would have caught more but I am just not mentally into baseball in March.
Which is why I (and many other people) feel that this is not the best time for the tournament. At least for the North Americans. Many are wrapped up in the NCAA tournament, NBA and NHL playoff races and baseball in March is the last thing on their minds. However, Bud Lite stated he is not open to discussion about changing the timing of the event.Bearlythere said:
O
OnTheWayOut
Pissed me off that I had to bail @ 1AM to get some sleep and didn't get to watch the 10th inning. Great planning Bud, you did it again. Take a good idea and screw it up ...........
What I could stay awake for was great baseball. My only negative was Sutcliffe who can't seem to shut up. And he and his partner wouldn't stop trying to convince everyone that the players really cared. This comment refers to the entire tournament, not last nite's game ( cept the shut up part). It was obvious last nite no one needed to convince anyone those 2 teams wanted to be there.
What I could stay awake for was great baseball. My only negative was Sutcliffe who can't seem to shut up. And he and his partner wouldn't stop trying to convince everyone that the players really cared. This comment refers to the entire tournament, not last nite's game ( cept the shut up part). It was obvious last nite no one needed to convince anyone those 2 teams wanted to be there.
hmmm....
you are talking about something impossible because you don't want to admit japan which is one of asian countries won the game twice.
you are talking about something impossible because you don't want to admit japan which is one of asian countries won the game twice.
Don said:
They just beat the games
MLB doesn't deserve blame for calling their championship the WORLD SERIES.
MLB doesn't deserve blame for calling their championship the WORLD SERIES.
pdson2 said:
I like it
It also confirms there's nothing "Super" about the SuperBowl.
Cool. I love getting to the bottom of things, especially about a sport that I follow. Along with "The Merkle Boner", it is now a certified truth about how the name came about.blueline said:
It also confirms there's nothing "Super" about the SuperBowl.
The timing of the WBC is terrible. In effect, they're offering up pre-season baseball as the WBC. Players are also less likely to participate fearing injury prior to the MLB season.blueline said:
IMO, it would make more sense to cancel the All-Star Game every fourth year and hold the WBC in its place (similar to what the NHL has done for the Winter Olympics).
How to fix the WBC
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2009/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3999459
Here is an excerpt of what he said:
We both want this tournament to be baseball's finest, globally perfect hour. But there are three reasons I don't think that can ever happen as long as the entire extravaganza is being held in March:
1. The best players aren't playing in it. Or if they are, many of them aren't ready for the demands of playing in it. Where's Josh Beckett? Where's Roy Halladay? Where are Brad Lidge and Joe Nathan? How wrong is it for Venezuela to be heading for the WBC Final Four without Johan Santana? And as mind-boggling as the Netherlands' upset of the Dominican may have been, I have a hard time believing that would have happened if Carlos Marmol had had his real stuff in the 11th inning, as opposed to his second-week-of-March stuff.
2. The WBC is a crime against spring training. A crime. A felony. There is no more special, more uplifting chunk of the baseball year than spring training -- but not this spring training. When Ramon Castro is hitting cleanup for the Mets, and the Red Sox are bringing lineups on the road that they'd be embarrassed to run out there in Pawtucket, that's not spring training. That's consumer fraud. But that's not all. Spring training is supposed to be a time for team building. But when players leave their teams for weeks at a time (six weeks, in the case of Japanese players), the clubs they've left behind feel like all they're doing is killing time, waiting for their real team to come back. They can't say that publicly, of course, or they'll be flogged by the proper authorities. But I've heard that sentiment in one spring-training camp after another. Meanwhile, nobody knows what to make of just about anything they've seen this spring. It's insanity.
3. Finally, what happened to the Americans who should love the WBC most? They aren't watching. That's what. Not enough of them are, anyhow. Either they've been way too preoccupied with how to handicap Wake Forest-Cleveland State, or the folks locked in on baseball are more focused on their teams. Understandably, too. Why wouldn't Yankees fans care more about who their center fielder is going to be than who's going to close for Team USA? Sure, it's possible to care about both, I guess. But why is baseball so intent on competing against itself? What kind of business sense does that make?
PLAN A: THE ALL-STAR-WEEK EXTRAVAGANZA
I heard this proposal from the always-incisive Buck Martinez, who managed Team USA in the 2006 WBC. Here's his idea:
Bag the All Star Game every four years and play the whole WBC during what would otherwise be All Star Week in July.
The sites would be the three metropolises with two ballparks -- New York, Chicago and L.A./Anaheim. No off days in each round for any team still alive. Finish the entire tournament in one week in July. And hold the finals on a Sunday, in prime time, when there isn't another sporting event in America to serve as competition. But, most of all, play this event when "players are ready," Martinez said.
"In July, players are ready to go," he said. "Players are in optimum shape. You'd take extra starters, so you'd have one starter start a game and that's it. And you'd give the rest of baseball a week's vacation in the middle of the summer. I think it would be a great thing for baseball.
"Then everybody's in shape. Nobody's concerned. Then you might get the Roy Halladays and Brandon Webbs and Jon Lesters and Josh Becketts. But if you hold it in March, then I understand why they won't do it."
What's the down side: Excellent idea. But there are two reasons owners would balk: (1) No interest in abandoning tradition by not holding the All-Star Game and (2) forcing half the clubs in baseball to give up a weekend worth of gates in July. To me, the positives take a unanimous decision over the negatives. But it would be a tough sell.
PLAN B: THE WORLD SERIES WINNERS TAKE ON THE WORLD
This idea was floated by a manager who wished to remain nameless:
Take the team that wins the World Series and pit it against the best teams in the world, the week after the World Series. It would be fun viewing, but it's a plan with a bunch of problems.
What's the down side: For one thing, it wouldn't be a true World Cup of Baseball, which is the whole point of the WBC. Plus, the big issue with any November version of this event is that players on non-playoff teams wouldn't be in shape, and players who played in the postseason would be burned out. Beyond that, suppose the Mets win the World Series. Would Santana pitch against Venezuela? You'd be threatening an international incident. So the better idea, which players love, is to have the World Series winner play the Japan Series winner some year. One of these centuries …
PLAN C: LIFE IMITATES THE PRO BOWL
Our final proposal comes from always-thoughtful Braves special assistant Jim Fregosi. His idea:
Play the WBC semifinals and finals in October, in between the League Championship Series and World Series.
"What's the NFL doing with the Pro Bowl? Playing it the week before the Super Bowl [next year]." Fregosi said. "Well, that's what baseball should do with the WBC."
What's the down side: One major issue is, you'd limit the potential participants, because players on the four LCS teams wouldn't be eligible, obviously. Now maybe your first reaction is: That still leaves plenty of other players to take part. Uh, not so fast. Suppose Ichiro weren't eligible to play for Japan, for example. Biiiigggg trouble. The other issue is: The October schedule is too jammed now. If anything, baseball needs to tighten it. Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea.
But it's not as interesting as the universally acclaimed Plan D -- (ta-taaaaa) …
THE STARK PLAN
Here's how we'd streamline this event if I were in charge:
Stage one: I'd take the eight teams that lost in the first round this year and lump them into a dramatic play-in round, consisting of two four-team round robins. Only the two winners would advance. Everybody else would go home and figure out where on their cable dial to find the MLB Network. I'd vote for holding that qualifying round right after the season, but I'm flexible. Want to play it in October? November? February? March? Whatever works best for all concerned. Doesn't matter to me.
Stage two: OK, now we have 10 teams left. Rather than yank their players out of spring training for weeks, The Stark Plan interrupts the spring festivities for only one week. We'd use that week to play two five-team round robins to get down to a Final Four.
Stage three: The Grand Finale -- So when would we decide the baseball champion of the world? In July, the best time of all. I'd bring the last four teams to the site of the All-Star Game. Then we'd have the greatest week of baseball ever. It would look like this:
• Home Run Derby on Monday.
• All-Star Game on Tuesday.
• WBC semifinals on Wednesday.
• WBC finals on Thursday.
How much fun would that be? You'd literally trot the greatest players on earth out there four nights in a row. You'd have one spectacular baseball night after another. There wouldn't be another meaningful sporting event on anybody's calendar -- unless Little Johnny's Babe Ruth League team made the playoffs or something.
If you look around, the WBC is drawing off-the-chart ratings around the world. It's doing everything it was designed to do, and maybe more, in swelling baseball's global popularity. So "if you judge this tournament on what happens in the United States," Archey said, "that's probably not the right barometer."
And he's right. But here's the counter-argument: If the WBC is really going to be everything it could be, everything it's supposed to be, we have to find a way for the baseball lovers in the United States to get swept up in it, too. And face it. That can't happen in March. Too many basketballs banking off the backboards in our heads.
But as Archey pointed out, there are other complications with The Stark Plan, too.
Could the Japanese, the Koreans and the Cubans arrange to freeze their seasons in time in July and fly off to the site of the All-Star Game? Maybe not. And what if everyone wanted to hold the semifinals and finals in Japan some year? Then what?
Two great points. But here's my answer. Those countries all suspend their seasons -- for two weeks -- for the Olympics, right? So why wouldn't they agree to do the same -- for a few days -- for the WBC?
And if we ever work out a rotation system in which the finals are played in Asia, say, once every four tournaments, we're talking once every 16 years. So we can figure out that scenario when that time comes.
But first, we need to get the good old USA on board here. And The Stark Plan is just the ticket to do that.
Want to mess with my plan in any way, or every way? I'm open to suggestions. Want to have just the last two teams play in July? Sure. Want to bring eight teams instead of four and play through the weekend? Works for me. Want to change the preliminary rounds? I'll listen to anything.
Jayson Stark of ESPN wrote this article recently and I like the idea.Bob_Loblaw said:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2009/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3999459
Here is an excerpt of what he said:
We both want this tournament to be baseball's finest, globally perfect hour. But there are three reasons I don't think that can ever happen as long as the entire extravaganza is being held in March:
1. The best players aren't playing in it. Or if they are, many of them aren't ready for the demands of playing in it. Where's Josh Beckett? Where's Roy Halladay? Where are Brad Lidge and Joe Nathan? How wrong is it for Venezuela to be heading for the WBC Final Four without Johan Santana? And as mind-boggling as the Netherlands' upset of the Dominican may have been, I have a hard time believing that would have happened if Carlos Marmol had had his real stuff in the 11th inning, as opposed to his second-week-of-March stuff.
2. The WBC is a crime against spring training. A crime. A felony. There is no more special, more uplifting chunk of the baseball year than spring training -- but not this spring training. When Ramon Castro is hitting cleanup for the Mets, and the Red Sox are bringing lineups on the road that they'd be embarrassed to run out there in Pawtucket, that's not spring training. That's consumer fraud. But that's not all. Spring training is supposed to be a time for team building. But when players leave their teams for weeks at a time (six weeks, in the case of Japanese players), the clubs they've left behind feel like all they're doing is killing time, waiting for their real team to come back. They can't say that publicly, of course, or they'll be flogged by the proper authorities. But I've heard that sentiment in one spring-training camp after another. Meanwhile, nobody knows what to make of just about anything they've seen this spring. It's insanity.
3. Finally, what happened to the Americans who should love the WBC most? They aren't watching. That's what. Not enough of them are, anyhow. Either they've been way too preoccupied with how to handicap Wake Forest-Cleveland State, or the folks locked in on baseball are more focused on their teams. Understandably, too. Why wouldn't Yankees fans care more about who their center fielder is going to be than who's going to close for Team USA? Sure, it's possible to care about both, I guess. But why is baseball so intent on competing against itself? What kind of business sense does that make?
PLAN A: THE ALL-STAR-WEEK EXTRAVAGANZA
I heard this proposal from the always-incisive Buck Martinez, who managed Team USA in the 2006 WBC. Here's his idea:
Bag the All Star Game every four years and play the whole WBC during what would otherwise be All Star Week in July.
The sites would be the three metropolises with two ballparks -- New York, Chicago and L.A./Anaheim. No off days in each round for any team still alive. Finish the entire tournament in one week in July. And hold the finals on a Sunday, in prime time, when there isn't another sporting event in America to serve as competition. But, most of all, play this event when "players are ready," Martinez said.
"In July, players are ready to go," he said. "Players are in optimum shape. You'd take extra starters, so you'd have one starter start a game and that's it. And you'd give the rest of baseball a week's vacation in the middle of the summer. I think it would be a great thing for baseball.
"Then everybody's in shape. Nobody's concerned. Then you might get the Roy Halladays and Brandon Webbs and Jon Lesters and Josh Becketts. But if you hold it in March, then I understand why they won't do it."
What's the down side: Excellent idea. But there are two reasons owners would balk: (1) No interest in abandoning tradition by not holding the All-Star Game and (2) forcing half the clubs in baseball to give up a weekend worth of gates in July. To me, the positives take a unanimous decision over the negatives. But it would be a tough sell.
PLAN B: THE WORLD SERIES WINNERS TAKE ON THE WORLD
This idea was floated by a manager who wished to remain nameless:
Take the team that wins the World Series and pit it against the best teams in the world, the week after the World Series. It would be fun viewing, but it's a plan with a bunch of problems.
What's the down side: For one thing, it wouldn't be a true World Cup of Baseball, which is the whole point of the WBC. Plus, the big issue with any November version of this event is that players on non-playoff teams wouldn't be in shape, and players who played in the postseason would be burned out. Beyond that, suppose the Mets win the World Series. Would Santana pitch against Venezuela? You'd be threatening an international incident. So the better idea, which players love, is to have the World Series winner play the Japan Series winner some year. One of these centuries …
PLAN C: LIFE IMITATES THE PRO BOWL
Our final proposal comes from always-thoughtful Braves special assistant Jim Fregosi. His idea:
Play the WBC semifinals and finals in October, in between the League Championship Series and World Series.
"What's the NFL doing with the Pro Bowl? Playing it the week before the Super Bowl [next year]." Fregosi said. "Well, that's what baseball should do with the WBC."
What's the down side: One major issue is, you'd limit the potential participants, because players on the four LCS teams wouldn't be eligible, obviously. Now maybe your first reaction is: That still leaves plenty of other players to take part. Uh, not so fast. Suppose Ichiro weren't eligible to play for Japan, for example. Biiiigggg trouble. The other issue is: The October schedule is too jammed now. If anything, baseball needs to tighten it. Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea.
But it's not as interesting as the universally acclaimed Plan D -- (ta-taaaaa) …
THE STARK PLAN
Here's how we'd streamline this event if I were in charge:
Stage one: I'd take the eight teams that lost in the first round this year and lump them into a dramatic play-in round, consisting of two four-team round robins. Only the two winners would advance. Everybody else would go home and figure out where on their cable dial to find the MLB Network. I'd vote for holding that qualifying round right after the season, but I'm flexible. Want to play it in October? November? February? March? Whatever works best for all concerned. Doesn't matter to me.
Stage two: OK, now we have 10 teams left. Rather than yank their players out of spring training for weeks, The Stark Plan interrupts the spring festivities for only one week. We'd use that week to play two five-team round robins to get down to a Final Four.
Stage three: The Grand Finale -- So when would we decide the baseball champion of the world? In July, the best time of all. I'd bring the last four teams to the site of the All-Star Game. Then we'd have the greatest week of baseball ever. It would look like this:
• Home Run Derby on Monday.
• All-Star Game on Tuesday.
• WBC semifinals on Wednesday.
• WBC finals on Thursday.
How much fun would that be? You'd literally trot the greatest players on earth out there four nights in a row. You'd have one spectacular baseball night after another. There wouldn't be another meaningful sporting event on anybody's calendar -- unless Little Johnny's Babe Ruth League team made the playoffs or something.
If you look around, the WBC is drawing off-the-chart ratings around the world. It's doing everything it was designed to do, and maybe more, in swelling baseball's global popularity. So "if you judge this tournament on what happens in the United States," Archey said, "that's probably not the right barometer."
And he's right. But here's the counter-argument: If the WBC is really going to be everything it could be, everything it's supposed to be, we have to find a way for the baseball lovers in the United States to get swept up in it, too. And face it. That can't happen in March. Too many basketballs banking off the backboards in our heads.
But as Archey pointed out, there are other complications with The Stark Plan, too.
Could the Japanese, the Koreans and the Cubans arrange to freeze their seasons in time in July and fly off to the site of the All-Star Game? Maybe not. And what if everyone wanted to hold the semifinals and finals in Japan some year? Then what?
Two great points. But here's my answer. Those countries all suspend their seasons -- for two weeks -- for the Olympics, right? So why wouldn't they agree to do the same -- for a few days -- for the WBC?
And if we ever work out a rotation system in which the finals are played in Asia, say, once every four tournaments, we're talking once every 16 years. So we can figure out that scenario when that time comes.
But first, we need to get the good old USA on board here. And The Stark Plan is just the ticket to do that.
Want to mess with my plan in any way, or every way? I'm open to suggestions. Want to have just the last two teams play in July? Sure. Want to bring eight teams instead of four and play through the weekend? Works for me. Want to change the preliminary rounds? I'll listen to anything.
Exactly. The Latin countries are way ahead of the Americans and Canadians because they play all winter. The Caribbean Series just finished in early February. Japan and more than likely Korea had started preparing for the WBC in January. No chance in hell the Americans are going to swing a bat or throw a ball in anger until they are good and ready, which is mid to late February. Credit the Koreans and the Japanese, they are excellent baseball clubs. However, does anyone not think a team of the best MLB'ers in prime condition (mid season) wouldn't put on a much better show? I'd like my chances with a rotation of Doc Halladay, Sabathia, Lester or Beckett, Tim Lincecum along with any one of Oswalt or Peavy (not the March edition), Webb, Hamels and several other top pitchers. Canada with their top pitchers Dempster, Harden, Francis, Bedard would be so much better than they were with that rotation of no names. You could say the same about the Latin American teams and their pitchers. Johan Santana in July for one would be scary to face. Japanese pitchers, for example, are conditioned to throw a lot more than the Americans. The USA MLB'ers are no where near ready to be throwing 70-85 pitches by March 15th or so, then 100 pitches in the third week of March. Only last night, AJ Burnett had a 75 pitch limit on him in the game against Boston. Dice-K has exceeded 85 pitches twice so far this spring. The Japanese pitchers seem to be throwing every day. On the broadcast the other night, that point was even made, how someone is usually up and throwing in the bullpen and how they throw in the outfield on their days off.Don said:
Again, kudos to Japan and Korea, as I said, they are fine baseball clubs and they play the game so well. However, to call them the true champions of the world in March is a bit of a stretch. They may very well win again in a 'very best on very best' tournament, but I'd like to believe the outcome would be a little different with all the top players participating and being in top condition.
