Anyone fought a red light camera ticket?

[Robinto]

I got one in the mail today. It look like I'm turning, however. Supposedly the light had changed for .06 seconds, and I entered the intersection while the light had been red for 2.2 seconds. For all I know, I was recorded in the intersection making a legal right turn.
What's the deal? Can I demand to see the video? I understand there are no points involved if I pay, but what repercussions might there be if I fight it? I pay more than my share of "tax" to this asshole city now, as it is.

 

[milehigh]

Pretty hard to do so... it is a cash grab.

 

[afterhours]

I got one in the mail today. It look like I'm turning, however. Supposedly the light had changed for .06 seconds, and I entered the intersection while the light had been red for 2.2 seconds. For all I know, I was recorded in the intersection making a legal right turn.
What's the deal? Can I demand to see the video? I understand there are no points involved if I pay, but what repercussions might there be if I fight it? I pay more than my share of "tax" to this asshole city now, as it is.

there is no video
your speed should be on the pics if memory serves; check it

 

[oldjones]

I got one in the mail today. It look like I'm turning, however. Supposedly the light had changed for .06 seconds, and I entered the intersection while the light had been red for 2.2 seconds. For all I know, I was recorded in the intersection making a legal right turn.
What's the deal? Can I demand to see the video? I understand there are no points involved if I pay, but what repercussions might there be if I fight it? I pay more than my share of "tax" to this asshole city now, as it is.

Leaving aside the tax thing since no one is paying enough to keep the roads (among other things) in decent shape, it would seem your argument is that you could have been turning legally. If the camera shows the turn signal and you in the appropriate lane, slam-dunk. If not, are you prepared to testify—with the force of an oath—that is what you did? If not, you have no case. Never mind the administrative difficulties of getting to a JP and making it.

Your lawyer could argue that the mere possibility that you might have been legally turning should get you off on 'reasonable doubt' while you sit silent, but you cannot testify, " I might have been turning" without appearing a fool.

 

[Robinto]

No speed on the ticket. There are three photos. The bottom pic is a closeup of my plate.

In the top pic, my car is slightly into the intersection, just across the lane marking, slightly angled right, and below it, another picture of another car, also slightly angled as if it came up immediately behind me. I'm not visible in what can be seen of the intersection in that second picture, like half way through the actual intersection, so unless there are pics of the duration in between these shots, I presumably turned.
If there's no video, can I request disclosure of other photos to confirm or deny my belief that I was turning? Does anyone know how many pics are taken of each car once the system is triggered?

And if I prove my case, what recourse do I have to file a complaint? Or a civil action against the officer who issued the ticket?
Is this incompetence, or do they just routinely send tickets out to people turning?
Or is he some character who doesn't think Toronto taxpayers are paying their share?

Yes, these red light cams are absolutely a cash grab.
They've been disallowed in some US states for this very reason.

But if I’m right, it means that they are randomly, or routinely dinging motorists who enter the intersection to turn. That constitutes malicious prosecutions of citizens, presumably based on the presumption that most will simply pay, and only a handful of falsely accused right hand lane turning drivers can or will fight.

Everyone knows that our Parking Enforcement Assholes, (sorry, I meant Officers), have a quota. Are there incentives for exceeding it? One Parking Enforcement asshole once actually bragged in a conversation we had that he held the record for the most tickets filed in one day, like I should be impressed, or proud of him or something, without considering that I may have been one of the guys he dinged. Maybe because I was one inch off from being within ten feet of a hydrant?

Is there an internal quota for these red light photo examiner pricks too? Is it possible that "extra-zealous" examination officers get some kind of reward or other benefit from extra charges laid by them?

What a pain in the ass.

By the way, Old Jones, the poor condition of our roads is not because they don’t wring enough tax out of Canadians, but a factor of how our local, and provincial governments choose to spend the money and taxes they are entrusted with.

I believe that if you have a particular bit of road you are concerned about, you should report it. If you make enough of a fuss, rest assured, a committee will eventually be formed, a handful of crony’s will be tasked to write a few $80,000 reports, and a plane load of councilors, and palace toady’s, will shortly assemble for a three-week, road-repair “fact-finding” junket, to LA, New York, Vegas, and Maui.

 

[GameBoy27]

No speed on the ticket. There are three photos. The bottom pic is a closeup of my plate.

In the top pic, my car is slightly into the intersection, just across the lane marking, slightly angled right, and below it, another picture of another car, also slightly angled as if it came up immediately behind me. I'm not visible in what can be seen of the intersection in that second picture, like half way through the actual intersection, so unless there are pics of the duration in between these shots, I presumably turned.
If there's no video, can I request disclosure of other photos to confirm or deny my belief that I was turning? Does anyone know how many pics are taken of each car once the system is triggered?

And if I prove my case, what recourse do I have to file a complaint? Or a civil action against the officer who issued the ticket?
Is this incompetence, or do they just routinely send tickets out to people turning?
Or is he some character who doesn't think Toronto taxpayers are paying their share?

Yes, these red light cams are absolutely a cash grab.
They've been disallowed in some US states for this very reason.

But if I’m right, it means that they are randomly, or routinely dinging motorists who enter the intersection to turn. That constitutes malicious prosecutions of citizens, presumably based on the presumption that most will simply pay, and only a handful of falsely accused right hand lane turning drivers can or will fight.

What a pain in the ass.

You will not get a ticket if you are making a right turn on a red light provided you come to a complete stop prior to making your turn. I suggest you probably did what I see many drivers do on a daily basis and roll through. You just so happened to do it at an intersection with a red light camera. Most people think they only nail people who go straight through.

Did you know that you can roll up to an intersection on a red light, come to a complete stop then proceed through and you will not get a ticket? It's true!

 

[69Shooter]

You will not get a ticket if you are making a right turn on a red light provided you come to a complete stop prior to making your turn. I suggest you probably did what I see many drivers do on a daily basis and roll through. You just so happened to do it at an intersection with a red light camera. Most people think they only nail people who go straight through.

Did you know that you can roll up to an intersection on a red light, come to a complete stop then proceed through and you will not get a ticket? It's true!

Anyone willing to TOFTT on this?

 

[GlavaMan]

Did you know that you can roll up to an intersection on a red light, come to a complete stop then proceed through and you will not get a ticket? It's true!

I have heard that the device works for cars going over 25 KM/hr. A stop & go would be under 25 KM/hr. Not that anyone wants to TOFTT!

 

[Robinto]

You will not get a ticket if you are making a right turn on a red light provided you come to a complete stop prior to making your turn. I suggest you probably did what I see many drivers do on a daily basis and roll through. You just so happened to do it at an intersection with a red light camera. Most people think they only nail people who go straight through.

Okay, except if they only shoot stills at red light intersections, how would they know I didn't stop before the intersection, like I'm supposed to, and was rolling at the moment I passed into it? Also, like I'm supposed to. In the one photo of my car that they gave me, my rear light isn't blinking, but its a STILL photo, and blinking signal lights don't always photograph well in single-shot stills, do they?

I just looked at the address of the Markham Road courthouse that I have to present my intention to appear at, and its 30 Km away in Scarborough.

That's close to an hours drive in city traffic, and an hours return trip, plus who-knows-how-long standing in a line, and parking fees on top of it. And that's just to start the process. Either that, or take a 325 dollar jam in the ass for OldJones' city infrastructural improvement plan.

If this all turns out to be bullshit, I'd like some accountability for the asshole who sent me the notice of offence. He/she is supposed to be some kind of quasi-officer of the court is he/she not?

 

[richaceg]

even if you're turning right but go over 20km without stopping on red...you will possibly get a ticket (on a stop sign with camera).

 

[Don Draper]

A ticket, any ticket, can be fought.

Get the trial date first. On the date of trial date send someone to represent you (anyone) and ask for a postponement.

99% of the time, at a postponement request, it gets thrown out of court.

 

[oldjones]

…edit…

By the way, Old Jones, the poor condition of our roads is not because they don’t wring enough tax out of Canadians, but a factor of how our local, and provincial governments choose to spend the money and taxes they are entrusted with.

I believe that if you have a particular bit of road you are concerned about, you should report it. If you make enough of a fuss, rest assured, a committee will eventually be formed, a handful of crony’s will be tasked to write a few $80,000 reports, and a plane load of councilors, and palace toady’s, will shortly assemble for a three-week, road-repair “fact-finding” junket, to LA, New York, Vegas, and Maui.

Which might explain why they weren't fixed before. But surely our new Mayor has ended all that gravy. We do know by personal experience, that he has cut taxes, and services both. Because he couldn't find much gravy. Certainly not the amounts in your fantasy.

So with his oodles and oodles of leftover cash he'll be promptly fixing our appallingly bad roads yes? With a better plan for that than for cost-free fantasy subways I trust. How many more tax cuts will it take for you guys to raise enough to do basic maintenence on sewers and such? I know that sounds insane, but don't blame me, it's you and Rob who are the ones touting "we're already taxed too much and it's all wasted, we'll pay for everything from savings. And cut taxes too". Or are you in fact saying, "Toronto can't afford roads as good as Guatemala. Live with it"?

Maybe you should stick to your topic: Getting off your ticket. I find it most curious you cannot say whether or not you did make a right turn. That uncertainty reduces the odds of being innocent by half: If you didn't turn, you're caught. The half that gets you off still requires you to swear you first stopped completely, then turned safely, and you don't have measured, timed evidence like they do. If the device has a speed or stop detector, or shows the stop line, it might be pretty hard to explain how you got as far as you did from 0kph at the line in the time shown on the photo. It's not another of your fantasies that you're the first right-turning motorist who ever raised that defence is it? My bet is they deal with that in the set up.

 

[Robinto]

So what your saying then, is that you have no actual idea, and no actual answers to any of my questions?
Not a single one.
The best you can offer is a guess, a bet if you will, that "They deal with that in the set up," but you don't actually know, or know how many pics they take, or whether they will have additional pictures, and can I request to see them, etc.
Or, whether there is any accountability amongst these quasi-officers of the court, who can force/extort payments of as much as $325 dollars out of citizens or force them to spend an entire day in court. You don't know if I can lodge a complaint or a civil action if photos exist that categorically prove I was turning but I got the summons anyway?
You don't know why the second picture shows a different car than mine, in the same position as mine, and why my car is nowhere to be seen in the intersection ahead of it?
In other words, you don't have any personal knowledge, experience, or connections, to help with any of my questions, your expertise is all in tax matters and city planning instead.
Well, thanks for contributing all the same.

For what it's worth, in case anyone else is interested, I have no clear idea if I was turning or not at this time. I only vaguely remember being in that neighborhood on that afternoon, looking for a gas station after leaving Fairview Mall. From the angle of my car it just looks like I am angled and about to turn. The timing on the pictures suggest I probably was. And further more, I am not the sort of driver who runs major intersections 2.6 seconds into the red. I'll have to go back there in a few days, find out what gas station I ended up at from my credit card records, and see if I can retrace my route.

 

[Mervyn]

Was your turn signal on ?

 

[afterhours]

damn, man, stop whining
check your pics again, your speed must be shown for 1st pic or else you stopped and then legitimately turned and there will be no conviction

check this out:ONTARIO REGULATION 277/99
RED LIGHT CAMERA SYSTEM EVIDENCE
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_990277_e.htm

3.1 (1)....3. In the bottom row, reading from left to right,
i. the first character is “B”, which means that this is the second in the series of photographs taken,
ii. the second, third and fourth characters are the frame set number on the roll of film used,
iii. the fifth character is “V”, which means that the following characters in the row indicate the speed at which the vehicle was travelling when the first photograph in the series of photographs was taken, or this space may be blank...

 

[girorok66]

I have got one last year. I got a court day instead of paying for it out right - I was thinking of talking to the prosecutor on the spot to see how much money and points I can have it reduced.

As it turned out I don't have to do anything.

The prosecutor announced that they will drop all 'red light' charges, including mine. She didn't explain why it happened. Looking back on my ticket there is one out of the three that is "empty" - my car is NOT in the intersaction in one of the pictures. May be that's why they dropped it?

 

[GameBoy27]

Did you know that you can roll up to an intersection on a red light, come to a complete stop then proceed through and you will not get a ticket? It's true!

Anyone willing to TOFTT on this?

I was being driving home one night by a friend who's a cop in his own car. He was explaining to me that if you stop at a red light (equipped with a red light camera) you can go through without getting your picture taken/getting a ticket if you stop first. He treated every red light as a stop sign. We went through a shitload after making sure it was safe to do so including several with cameras and I never saw a flash go off. I asked what would happen if we got pulled over, he laughed and said "no worries, I'm a cop".

 

[smiley1437]

I got one in the mail today. It look like I'm turning, however. Supposedly the light had changed for .06 seconds, and I entered the intersection while the light had been red for 2.2 seconds. For all I know, I was recorded in the intersection making a legal right turn.
What's the deal? Can I demand to see the video? I understand there are no points involved if I pay, but what repercussions might there be if I fight it? I pay more than my share of "tax" to this asshole city now, as it is.

Same thing happened to me last year (I was turning, but got snapped by the RLC). It's fairly obvious in the photo that I was turning.

I went to set a court date for it, intending to challenge.

A few weeks later (months before the court date) I got a letter in the mail that said that the red light charge was withdrawn. Not sure what happened, maybe the act of setting a court date causes someone to actually take a closer look at the photo?

Who knows, all I can say is if you were actually turning right, it would be worth your time to at least set a court date. At least it gives you options.

Good luck. And drive safe.

 

[lakebear]

It is frustrating to get nabbed this way..However if you get a lawyer, it may cost you just as much as your fine to hire the legal help...maybe try to defend your self and see what happens..the worst thing that can happen is that you get a reduced fine from a compassionate judge. Bon chance!

 

[oldjones]

So what your saying then, is that you have no actual idea, and no actual answers to any of my questions?
Not a single one.
The best you can offer is a guess, a bet if you will, that "They deal with that in the set up," but you don't actually know, or know how many pics they take, or whether they will have additional pictures, and can I request to see them, etc.
Or, whether there is any accountability amongst these quasi-officers of the court, who can force/extort payments of as much as $325 dollars out of citizens or force them to spend an entire day in court. You don't know if I can lodge a complaint or a civil action if photos exist that categorically prove I was turning but I got the summons anyway?
You don't know why the second picture shows a different car than mine, in the same position as mine, and why my car is nowhere to be seen in the intersection ahead of it?
In other words, you don't have any personal knowledge, experience, or connections, to help with any of my questions, your expertise is all in tax matters and city planning instead.
Well, thanks for contributing all the same.

For what it's worth, in case anyone else is interested, I have no clear idea if I was turning or not at this time. I only vaguely remember being in that neighborhood on that afternoon, looking for a gas station after leaving Fairview Mall. From the angle of my car it just looks like I am angled and about to turn. The timing on the pictures suggest I probably was. And further more, I am not the sort of driver who runs major intersections 2.6 seconds into the red. I'll have to go back there in a few days, find out what gas station I ended up at from my credit card records, and see if I can retrace my route.

As I said: If you weren't turning, they got you. If you were, and if you did so properly that's the defence you'll have to make, while they'll have to prove you did not and broke the law. Seems simple to me.

And, although it's impossible to offer specific advice beyond that—as you gave no specifics—you've had all sorts of helpful suggestions about RLCs in general

Meanwhile you go on and on about wasted taxes and abuse of process, but can't even recall where you were. Since those expensive, tax-paid authorities have a time and date stamped photo to show exactly that (and which purports to show you breaking a law made for our safety), I can't really see what you're on about. Except to vent that irrelevant crap about taxes, and being cheap about paying your fine. But you nicely summed up your whole train of your thinking above with "…I have no clear idea".

When you have got a fact or two to move the topic beyond complaint of injustice and waste, be sure to post it.