Careers right out of uni..?

[a 1 player]

The business world is one big game where in school they never teach you the rules. A person may have a MBA, BA, or college diploma and that is usually enough to get in the door of most companies. With the exception of specialty fields of course. In my experience there are only two ways to move up the ladder quickly. Outperform everybody and get in with the right people. You basically need to do both.

When I started in manufacturing years ago I was hired on as a clerk, basically a secretary. I quickly was told that in order for me to move up I would need a P-eng degree. Raising a young family this was not an option for me. I looked at the people who were moving up in rank, those who had been in the same position for years, the people who had influence, the people who were getting fired etc. While I was doing this I absorbed everything that I could learn.

The first thing I learned was that my three years of college was basically useless. Everything changed from the way I had learned it, and they never taught me the people skills that are 90% of what is needed to succeed.

I positioned myself with the people who were moving up, became their friends, played golf with them etc. and worked like a SOB. When a position became available I made my intentions known to my manager. Though I did not have the degree required, my work ethic showed and I had a few respected people pulling for me. I have done this a few times quite successfully.

In short: work hard, get in with the right people, know the people who are stagnant (they can help you on your way too), treat everybody with respect, and get to know the President's secreatry very, very well. (She may be one of the most important people as she is the one who will either get you in with the boss or not).

Do not be afraid to take an entry level job, this is one of the best ways to discover how a company works, especially if you do not have the skill set required for a management position.

Once you have gone as far as you can go in a company, put out a resume and change jobs. There are tons of companies out there who are looking for fresh blood and new ideas.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. It has worked very well for me. I guess what I am trying to say is that you start with a job and work into a carreer, carreers are usually earned IMHO.

Good luck in your search.

 

[yychobbyist]

7%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Canada is not the land of milk and honey?????????

Damn

To quote one of your heroes "there you go again."

 

[Diode]

Free advice: All work is a net positive to personal development.
and remember what ever you do....BUST YOUR ASS!

 

[Malibook]

As of Feb 2005 US Unemployment for those 16 and older was 5.4% not 4% as you claim.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t07.htm

5.4% is 35% higher than 4% but the real rate is significantly higher than that if you count the people who are not considered to be actively pursuing a job.

One must also consider the quality of the jobs that are available.
For quite some time, there were over 400,000 new unemployment claims in the US every week, and even now a couple of years later the number is still over 300,000 new initial claims every week.
Many of these were high quality jobs that have not been replaced and are never coming back.

 

[red]

Good day everybody!
I have been a long time lurker of terb. I recently graduated from UofT for B.Comm and have completed my diploma at humber for marketing. I have been looking for a job for about 3 months now and to no avail. Now taking into consideration, i have 4 years of managerial experience at a retail store. I cant find a job that doesnt involve telemarketing, door to door or a job that pays 20k a year.
I have checked every website out there (monster, workopolis, jobs..) but to no avail..
I am looking for a career, but dont really know where to start.
Is this a bad time for jobs?
For example, Does it require me to start as a csr and then work my way up, say at RBC or TD?
any suggestions? on where i should start?
p.s. taking into acct that i am well groomed, dressed, speak perfect english and have a desire to learn/achieve.
Thanks
Careerless

BComm- what area? accounting, finance, economics or marketing?

 

[shakenbake]

True Words!

*lol*

One thing that kills me today is that everyone who graduates from university or college expect to start making big bucks right away.

Wont happen and when it does its like a lottery, very few win.

Start on the ground floor and work your way up. Volunteer when you can like Doll suggested. It gets your name out there among people who do take an interest in you and your skills.

Good luck.

Sheik;

Truer words were never spoken!

I started out of university with a Ph.D. in chemical engineering, during a time when we were in a bit of a major recession. My first job was essentially as a wet bench chemist, and I had to prove myself, which I did.

My words of advice are,
1] keep an open mind and explore all options,
2] networking helps a great deal,
3] always be optimistic,
4] never let your education get in the way of doing something important and worthwhile!

shakenbake

 

[Mr. Downtown]

Like someone else said, its all about who you know and vise versa. Looking at want-ads and employment websites, accounts for a small portion of the jobs filled out there. It will basically get you nowhere. Do as I did when I graduated and moved to this city....target companies whom you wish to work for, cold call up the heads of those departments (stay away from HR), explain yourself and ask for a meeting. You will be surprised by the number of influential people who will be willing to talk to you because of your initiative. They may not have a job for you but they always like to talk about themselves and their company and may connections for you to contact in the industry. Even if nothing comes out of any particular meeting you at least develop add'l on-the-spot interviewing skills. Start now.

 

[johndoe125]

It's easier then you think

My self being farely young and went through the same situation a few years ago.

If you want to work in finance with one of the major banks and do not have any contacts, a temp agency is your best bet.

This will get your foot in the door, if you work hard, become a good listener and be respectfull and sociable it will open up alot of doors for you.

The key is knowing how to be sociable, I found I got ahead by socialicing with people outside having a cigarette, I also found out the most information about what was hapenning by befriending the controller, and for some reason that person always seems to smoke. The best time to get to know someone is after hours 7:00 to 8:00 PM. You can build a buddy routine with them to have a cigarette together.

Thanks to those few tips I was able to start at $13/hour 4 years ago and now I work as a consultant and each year I was able to double my income.

Also once you have your "first" job for about a year, start looking elsewhere, I found the fastest way to move up is to move around, make sure every time you switch jobs its for better position and more money.

Hope that helps

 

[trek5]

My self being farely young and went through the same situation a few years ago.

If you want to work in finance with one of the major banks and do not have any contacts, a temp agency is your best bet.

This will get your foot in the door, if you work hard, become a good listener and be respectfull and sociable it will open up alot of doors for you.

The key is knowing how to be sociable, I found I got ahead by socialicing with people outside having a cigarette, I also found out the most information about what was hapenning by befriending the controller, and for some reason that person always seems to smoke. The best time to get to know someone is after hours 7:00 to 8:00 PM. You can build a buddy routine with them to have a cigarette together.

.

Hope that helps

are u kidding thats the worst image u can create for yourself as being a smoker , they are the biggest time wasters in any company . many employers are discouraged by hiring smokers indirectly , smokers are know to take more unauthorised breaks and sick days because of their nasty smoking addiction .

 

[Keebler Elf]

*lol*

One thing that kills me today is that everyone who graduates from university or college expect to start making big bucks right away.

I think that's way off base. The original poster wasn't looking for big bucks, he was just looking for a job that didn't involve telemarketing or that paid minimum wage. IMO, both of these are reasonable expectations considering his credentials.

Now he is in marketing, which I can see as being a tough labour market to get into unless you have connections. But as a marketer, I would expect good marketing skills, especially when it comes to your own abilities. I would recommend seeing a job counsellor (if you're a recent graduate, I'm pretty sure U of T still provides assistance) to make he doesn't have glaring problems with his resume. I would also recommend looking for a job in fields that may not seem like traditional marketing ones. Getting a PR or communications job can give the experience needed to move into marketing later on. In short, broaden your horizons.

While I agree that a lot of youth have high expectations, I don't think that is entirely a bad thing considering the time and financial investments they have made in themselves. For an employer to treat a university grad like just another high school grad or like some schmo to be taken advantage of just b/c he is new to the job is, IMHO, insulting and doesn't recognize that person's achievements. Not someone I'd want to work for to begin with. I find that the attitude that "all youth are lazy and want to start off at the top" is one of ignorance that justs adds to the problem of youth unemployment. There are plenty of young workers willing to work their way up; but that's kinda hard to do when employers won't give them the chance b/c "they just want to start at the top and make the big bucks."

 

[careerless]

HI,
First, i would like to thank every member for their input.I understand its difficult without some history.
I have been out of school for about a year now and while i was in school i worked retail as a store/sales manager, i have always had a few side ventures to keep the funds somewhat consistent. For the last year and a little i have been in this industry, running a small operation with a few girls.It is fairly decent operation with a few speedbumps along the way like any thing else. I have chosen to find something real, something that has meaning (i can already hear the boo's), and since i am still relatively young, i think that getting a taste of what the corporate ladder offers may not be a bad thing. I have also made the choice because i feel that if i have kids one day, it wouldn't be right for me to be doing this (now i can really hear the boo's). The last job on my resume is my sales job, and not the agency (for obvious reasons). I love sales and i love being an entrepreneur, but im confused on what to do? what field should i get into? i dont know which direction to go.
As far as race goes i am caucasian, i was raised here.
as far as courses go, i am about 6 months away from acuiring my real estate completion (phase 3), i was going to do my CSC, but i thought if i get a job at an institutuion they would cover the cost, but i might just do it myself depending on the way things pan out...
any other ideas?

 

[canucklehead]

depends on your engineering ...... I dropped out of University 3 different times and have just worked hard and sold myself and my skills. Great customer service hard work and honesty has gotten me where i am. I don't even use the degree i eventually got though the research skills are about the only thing i can say i benefited from in school and i can work hard after drinking all night.

 

[jwmorrice]

It's on the American experience but...

I thought this article from the LA Times was interesting.

jwmorrice

March 11, 2005

THE NATION
Long-Term Jobless Find a Degree Just Isn't Working
March 11, 2005
By Nicholas Riccardi, Times Staff Writer


Dan Gillespie never thought he'd have to look so hard for work.

When the Seattle-area resident left the Air Force in 1980, he earned a computer science degree and enjoyed 20 years of steady work. He saved enough money to buy his wife's childhood home last year.

Three months later, he was laid off.

Gillespie, 53, hasn't found a job since. Even the corner store won't hire him. He and his wife sold the house last month.

"The computer jobs are gone," he said. "So what's next? We can't all move into gene splicing."

Long-term unemployment, defined as joblessness for six months or more, is at record rates. But there's an additional twist: An unusually large share of those chronically out of work are, like Gillespie, college graduates.

The increasing inability of educated workers to quickly return to the workforce reflects dramatic shifts in the economy, experts say. Even as overall hiring is picking up and economic growth remains strong, industries are transforming at a rapid pace as they adjust to intense competition, technological change and other pressures.

That means skilled jobs can quickly become obsolete, while others are outsourced. Educated workers are increasingly subject to the job insecurities and disruptions usually plaguing blue-collar laborers, but various factors make it even harder for some educated workers to get back into the workforce quickly. Though a college education is still one of a worker's best assets, it's no guarantee that a worker's skills will match demands of a shifting job market.

The advantages of a college degree "are being erased," said Marcus Courtenay, president of a branch of the Communications Workers of America that represents technology employees in the Seattle area. "The same thing that happened to non- college-educated employees during the last recession is now happening to college-educated employees."

Even with better-than-expected job growth, 373,000 people with college degrees quit job hunting and dropped out of the labor force last month, the Labor Department reported Friday.

The number of long-term unemployed who are college graduates has nearly tripled since the bursting of the tech bubble in 2000, statistics show. Nearly 1 in 5 of the long-term jobless are college graduates. If a degree holder loses a job, that worker is now more likely than a high school dropout to be chronically unemployed.

That change is occurring as it is getting harder for all jobless to get back into the workforce.

Since the 2001 recession, about one-fifth of the unemployed have been out of work for more than six months — and that proportion has steadily crept up even as the unemployment rate has fallen. The percentage of jobless who are chronically unemployed is even higher in California — 23.3% last month, versus 20.5% nationwide.

Even with the national unemployment rate at a relatively low 5.4%, the share of those out of work for more than six months is higher now than during the early 1980s, when the jobless rate was in the double digits, analysts say. The average length of unemployment is also higher now than at any time other than the early 1980s.

 

[jwmorrice]

LA Times Article - Part II

Analysts cite several reasons for the growing vulnerability of educated workers to long-term joblessness.

For one, the number of college graduates has steadily risen over the decades. So it's natural that more will also lose work.

Tech workers, in particular, are victims of their successes during the 1990s, when many high-tech companies went on hiring binges and wages soared.

"They basically stockpiled workers," said Mark Zandi, an economist with Economy.com. Now those companies have gotten rid of their overstock.

Higher pay commanded by college graduates also is a factor. Wage differentials between those with and without college degrees are at record highs. Those relatively well-paid professionals may take longer to find work because they are more reluctant to accept lower-paying work — although many ultimately do.

Educated professionals also have assets, such as stocks and homes, that can help tide them over. But digging into those assets can be painful, as Khaled Amer learned.

Amer's consulting business hasn't had a client since June. The electrical engineer hasn't found work in months, and as chairman of an Orange County chapter of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, he says he knows of hundreds of others in similar straits. His wife recently lost her accounting job when the small manufacturing firm she worked for folded.

The couple are surviving by living off a home equity loan.

"That has been a saving grace," said Amer, 46.

But the Amers had been hoping their house in Irvine would finance their retirement.

The problems of long-term unemployment are even more pronounced for older workers, for whom retirement issues loom large. The number of long-term unemployed who were 45 or older doubled from 2000 to 2003. That comes as studies show that the elderly are having to work longer and put off retirement.

John Challenger, chief executive of Chicago-based outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas, said older workers often face age discrimination but may also face a tougher time adjusting to the increasingly shifting skills needed in the workplace.

"There are more and more specialists," Challenger said. "And if there are more and more specialists in an information economy, you get people whose skills aren't as portable as they used to be."

Paul Kostek, an official with the IEEE, said employers had become pickier about what skills they wanted.

"When there's a lot of people out in the marketplace, companies can afford to say we want someone truly with this experience, not someone who just says, 'Well, I've taken a couple of classes in this area,' " he said.

Getting retrained is also increasingly difficult. Job-training funds have been steadily cut over the decades. Fields that are booming, such as nursing, can require years of study that some jobless cannot afford.

Virginia Johnson of San Jose lost her job as a supply manager for a Silicon Valley firm in January 2003. Except for a nine-month temporary stint, she's been out of work since then. Among the many things she's had to put off is returning to school to finish her business degree.

"Having this time off work would have been great if I'd had the money to go to school," said Johnson, whose unemployment insurance runs out next month.

jwm

 

[jwmorrice]

LA Times Article - Part III

It's getting tougher to keep pace with the changing job market, analysts say. Two economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York studied job losses during the last three recessions and concluded that the most recent one, in 2001, involved "structural" changes in industries rather than the usual ups and downs of the business cycle.

That means that certain jobs may never be replaced. For example, jobs designing computer chips may vanish because of fundamental changes in chip design or production or because the industry has shipped the jobs overseas, experts say. Or businesses' efforts to boost productivity may mean that computer programs shrink the number of loan officers needed to process applications at a bank.

Erica Groshen, a co-author of the New York Fed study, noted that though the United States manufactures less, white-collar workers increasingly produce goods and services on Information Age assembly lines.

"Instead of a room of auto workers," Groshen said, "you've got a room of insurance brokers."

Those white-collar assembly-line workers are the most vulnerable to changes in the globalized economy, experts say. "These are the types of people who are going to have their jobs under the threat of outsourcing," said Sylvia Allegretto, an economist with the liberal Economic Policy Institute in Washington.

Keith Michaelson feels buffeted by those changes. He used to be a schoolteacher in rural Michigan. When the local school district ran out of money, he studied computers and worked at a Wisconsin-based technology company for 10 years until it was bought out and closed.

Michaelson moved to Los Angeles to work as a computer troubleshooter. He survived one layoff in 2001 and got a job at a local nonprofit. But he lost that post last September and has been looking for work ever since.

Michaelson said he barely recognizes the job market nowadays. "The market changes a lot faster now than it used to," he said.

In the meantime, Michaelson is living in a West Los Angeles apartment and surviving off his savings. "Sometimes I wonder, was it worth it for me to go to college or not?" he said. "I'm 45 and not working, I don't have much money put aside for retirement…. This is my retirement [I'm spending], and I'll be working until I keel over."

 

[[ALIMEISTER]]

I have about a year and a half left before I graduate from university. Just recently I found a job at a great company which is currently paying me 38g's, which isn't bad considering, technically i'm only a high school graduate. I had a killer resume and gave a killer interview. I am working towards my business degree. Am I satisfied with this for the rest of my life? No. Do I have high expectations? Yes I do. Not only because i'll have a degree, but i'm gaining the experience that should get me to where I want to be. This position was full time, and I jumped on it, and decided to go to school part time. I made that decision knowing i'll have an edge over others because of my experience. This company is internationally respected and lots of internal hiring.

I'm also working towards my CHRP (Canadian Human Resources Program) and CSC which will be paid for by my company. Courses like these are recognized by many institutions and give you an edge over others.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is that you've got to start somewhere. If I were a university graduate, I still would've jumped at this opportunity and do some certificate courses part time which are recognized by the company I am working for. This in turn, would help you move up the ladder. Try getting into a big corporation be it an entry level position at IBM, Microsoft, CIBC etc where they're are opportunties of advancement and growth. Gain an years worth of experience and apply within the company for a better position. You definately will be qualified because of your degree.

You should never be satisfied with what you have, but be happy with what you got.

 

[booboobear]

..... in all seriousness get some experience and put in your time.
He has already won the world's biggest lottery.... being born and or living in North America. We take way to much for granted. We are only 10 percent (estimate) of the worlds population but have a majority of the wealth.

I agree we do take too much for granted but I think it's more the rich people and those born to wealth that take it for granted.
When you say we have a majority of the wealth what I think is that a small percentage of the population have a disproportinate amount of the wealth.


Considering the cost of university I don't think it is too much to expect a job earning at least $ 25 k to start . Maybe he should take some courses and apply for a job at an insurance company.

 

[someone]

5.4% is 35% higher than 4% but the real rate is significantly higher than that if you count the people who are not considered to be actively pursuing a job.

One must also consider the quality of the jobs that are available.
For quite some time, there were over 400,000 new unemployment claims in the US every week, and even now a couple of years later the number is still over 300,000 new initial claims every week.
Many of these were high quality jobs that have not been replaced and are never coming back.

A lot of the difference between Canadian and American unemployment rates can be explained by the more generous Canadian EI and welfare rules. The unemployment rates in the two countries really started to diverge in the 1970s when Canada made EI (than UI) much more generous.

 

[trek5]

A lot of the difference between Canadian and American unemployment rates can be explained by the more generous Canadian EI and welfare rules. The unemployment rates in the two countries really started to diverge in the 1970s when Canada made EI (than UI) much more generous.

while thats true that canadia is very generous with EI but that runs out , the longest u can get EI is 43 weeks . welfare on the other hand is a lifetime and if ur a single mom or recent refugee/immigrent u can survive nicely on welfare and not work and have free drug/dental plan .

the US economy is booming because Americans tend to spend more , therefore creating more jobs and they have stricter immigration policy which deters immigrents ffrom abusing the welfare system and taking jobs away from Americans .

 

[shakenbake]

while thats true that canadia is very generous with EI but that runs out , the longest u can get EI is 43 weeks . welfare on the other hand is a lifetime and if ur a single mom or recent refugee/immigrent u can survive nicely on welfare and not work and have free drug/dental plan .

the US economy is booming because Americans tend to spend more , therefore creating more jobs and they have stricter immigration policy which deters immigrents ffrom abusing the welfare system and taking jobs away from Americans .

All that and the US means business when they invest and spend money on r & d and on developing industry. We have had for far too long a 'branch plant' economic mania and an inferiority complex!