Coward Rat Bastard

[james t kirk]

According to the CBC, it may be a kidnapping for money they figure now.

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/10/22/missing031022

Sounds like an asian gang figured they could score some easy money. Probably didn't figure the parents would freak when their daughter went missing assuming it was a Holly Jones thing and call the cops instantly rather than figure that it was some 4' tall grease ball.

Not that it makes it any different whatsoever, but everyone out there fears the random fucking psycho who picks your kid just because he sees her walking down the street.

The asian gangs count on the distrust that asian immigrants have of the cops in general back in China and the idea that you just don't talk to cops cause it will be worse.

If the chinese slug thing is true you can bet one thing, there are a couple of stupid chinese guys right now sweating bullets that the entire toronto police force is out looking for their asses.

If they had any brains whatsoever they would just let the girl go and cut their losses.

 

[Trelew]

The big problem is the threat of punishment doesn't deter anyone from committing a crime.

I mean think about it...someone who is breaking the law is not thinking about what happens if they get caught. And for those who commit sexual crimes are mentally/socially handicapped not to care about those laws.

 

[Gord's Bro]

Legimate arguments

Don't want to turn this thread into a debate on capital punishment (or take away from the concern over the missing girl) but I think Imapla77's comments sum up my feelings in response to NeeditWantit.

I'd try to respond to specific comments but having a helluva time mastering the the quotes, comments, replies function on this board. I guess, in addition to a being a bleeding heart, I'm computer illiterate. (Some one help, please!!!)

By the way, anyone notice the gap growing between police and media during the recent updates on the kidnapping?

 

[Goober Mcfly]

Re: Re: Re: doesn't work....

You can't dig up the executed and say "oh sorry, we made a mistake".

Actually, you can. It just won't help.

 

[Quest4Less]

Right or wrong.... Deterent (sp?) or not.... I don't care... it stops the person from doing it again!

I also don't care if they are evil, sick, or were abused as a child themselves. It's a proven fact that pedophiles (if that's what this turns out to be) are incurable and WILL do it again given the chance.

KILL them and be done with it.

Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord is all fine and dandy... IF you believe in God. What if there isn't one?

 

[luckyjackson]

I'm against c.p. as well. But cases like this test my resolve. It's hard to argue with the fact that a dead child molester won't be molesting any more kids.

 

[[ALIMEISTER]]

That is your opinion, and only an opinion, no better or worse than anyone elses. You certain have a large set of balls to presume to talk about how other people would react to events.

I never stated my opinion was better than anyone elses. Why don't you show me where you see it. Stop trying to look for a flame war and stop assuming. And for your information, I do have a large set of balls.

 

[[ALIMEISTER]]

And by the way, it's not rocket science to figure out how the majority of people would react after their child was raped, molested or murdered. Maybe for you it is. Hell, maybe you might even forgive and forget the tragedy. I certainly would not.
Oh by the way, this is just my opinon. I do not state anywhere whether or not it is better or worse than anyone elses. Thought i'd get that out of the way before you get on my ass again.

 

[pool]

no such thing as "evil"

Alimyster :You'd be surprised to see how many activists against capital punishment would change their views if anything of such nature (god forbid) ever happened to their children.

I'm sure you are right in some cases Alimyster, but the opposite is also true. Many people become "enlightened" and part of the process they go through in dealing with their loss is to forgive or show compassion for the perpetrator. Just because one human acts barbarically, it doesn't mean others can't rise above it.

Angel Aurora :Do you think a parent would ever fully recover or be the same again, after losing a child in such a horrendous and henious manner?

I highly doubt I would or many people would for that matter, Aurora. But, I don't think knowing that the person who did it is also dead would help me any, even if my primal instincts want them to pay in blood for what they did. To me, that isn't coming to terms with the loss or tragedy. If you think about it, having the killer, killed has no real bearing in dealing with the actual loss.

I find these type of crimes horrendous and utterly horrifying. It's sickening to imagine what some of these innocent victims go through. I just don't find another killing [ not meaning to lessen the nature of the original killing ] a solution or of any real resolve.

I don't mean to come across as vengefully sadistic, as being exposed to such thinking, is always an awakening to me, as to how ugly a creature that can be. But, as well as imprisonment wouldn't surgical castration be a possible option for such sex offenders.

Anyway, these are just my opinions. They really don't mean much. I am not judge, jury or executioner. What we say will have no bearing on what will happen in this case, if indeed, the speculations are right ( it's a kidnapping, at this point ). It's just an outlet for our frustration and feeling powerless. In the end, we, as individual members of TERB are not the ones to choose who dies and who lives.

 

[seven]

Society, mercy and enlightenment.

I missed the part about why it doesn't make sense to allow the parents to determine the fate of their child's killer. Is there a good reason not to since it is their loss and they have to deal with it. The victims, obviously, doesn't have a choice in deciding their own fate, so why should the child killer? Why is it "unenlightened" not to give that choice (the child killer's fate) to the parents? How does mercy enforced by government/society enlighten those individuals that have experienced the loss of a child at the hands of a child killer? How does it enlighten society in general? How can society offer mercy when it is not theirs to give.

PS - I've heard the part about the killer, maybe, being innocent. But if it is a molestation murder and his semen DNA is found on the victim's body, how can one explain that away?

PS Pool:

no such thing as "evil"

How do you figure that?

 

[impala77]

if the parents of a child killer are allowed to determine the punishment then what is the point in having a trial, an investigation and a prison system? society as a whole needs standards to maintain order. Acrime against a person is not committed just against that person, it is committed against the entire socailly accepted standards that's why we have a legal system.

otherwise it would all be individual vigilantes running around punishing each other with out any consistency.

I'm not a bleeding heart i would love nothing more than to be able to see the likes of bernardo and olsen beaten to a bloody pulp but that is an emotional response and doesn't do anything to further protect people from that type of harm

 

[pool]

RE: no such thing as evil.

PS Pool: How do you figure that?

I dunno, seven. I figure lots of things. I was referring to it in the sense that people use it as an unexplained force, to make sense of acts that are morally reprehensible and beyond their comprehension, within their own moral standards.

 

[WhOiSyOdAdDy?]

It is a bad situation... and I wonder if anyone else has also considered the possibility that the parents could somehow be involved in her disappearance?

 

[seven]

The legal system and society.

if the parents of a child killer are allowed to determine the punishment then what is the point in having a trial, an investigation and a prison system?

The point of the investigation would be to provide evidence for the trial. The point of the trial would be for a jury/judge to decide guilt based on the evidence. The point of a prison system is to provide the jury/judge (or whatever the case may be) one alternative to dispense justice and provide order within a society.

society as a whole needs standards to maintain order. Acrime against a person is not committed just against that person, it is committed against the entire socailly accepted standards that's why we have a legal system.

I'll agree with that in part. Who bears the majority of the burden though, in child molestation/rape cases?

otherwise it would all be individual vigilantes running around punishing each other with out any consistency.

Why would the parent's deciding upon the sentencing of a child killer be any different than a jury doing the same, in terms of overall consistency among cases? If anything you would find more consistency among the parents; the child killers would all get executed.

I'm not a bleeding heart i would love nothing more than to be able to see the likes of bernardo and olsen beaten to a bloody pulp but that is an emotional response and doesn't do anything to further protect people from that type of harm

You are assuming that the only reason to sentence a person to prison is "to further protect people from that type of harm" or to incapacitate the guilty. That is not true. The other reasons are to serve as a deterrent to others, and most importantly justice (which is a term synonymous with punishment or vengeance). Allowing the parents to decide life imprisonment vs. capital punishments still achieves those objectives.

PS Pool:

I dunno, seven. I figure lots of things. I was referring to it in the sense that people use it as an unexplained force, to make sense of acts that are morally reprehensible and beyond their comprehension, within their own moral standards

But how does that exclude the existence of evil?

 

[Hollywoodladies.ca]

Re: Re: Re: Re: doesn't work....

Actually, you can. It just won't help.

That's hideous!!LOL!!

Steph

 

[pool]

am I evil ? - I am man

seven: PS Pool: But how does that exclude the existence of evil?

Man, what is wrong with you ? ... hehe ... You think "evil" caused the "bombing" of the world trade centre ? Was it the driving force behind Hitler, Charles Manson or ... anyway, just to name a few.

No, things are all explainable and even comprehend-able, if you have the vantage point and care to search for an answer.

In a literary sense you can refer to acts or people as evil, but it does not exist as an entity in itself. As far as I know ...

 

[Goober Mcfly]

Re: am I evil ? - I am man

Was it the driving force behind Hitler, Charles Manson or ... anyway, just to name a few.

And poolie invokes Godwin's Law

*golf-clap*

 

[pool]

there are few absolutes.

seven: If anything you would find more consistency among the parents; the child killers would all get executed.

One example :the forgiven

Another : Forgiving Her Child’s Killer

I think we'd be surprised at how the human mind reacts when faced with such a tragedy and how it can serve as a wake up call. ( Some may affirm their religious beliefs. Others just become more aware and gain a sense of clarity on a more existential level, even though they are in the minority. After all, we are only humans - not that that should restrict our awareness )

 

[seven]

Re: am I evil ? - I am man

Man, what is wrong with you ? ... hehe ... You think "evil" caused the "bombing" of the world trade centre ? Was it the driving force behind Hitler, Charles Manson or ... anyway, just to name a few.

No, things are all explainable and even comprehend-able, if you have the vantage point and care to search for an answer.

In a literary sense you can refer to acts or people as evil, but it does not exist as an entity in itself. As far as I know ...

I must admit that you're good (if there is such a thing LOL.) Arguing that there is no such thing as evil and pulling it off like you did is impressive.

You said that there was no such thing as evil (i.e. it doesn't exist at all). Then you admit that it does exist but as a concept (same thing as literary sense). The concept of evil/hate can be applied to the driving force behind Hitler, Charles Manson, the "bombing" etcetera, and doesn't need a tangible quality on to itself to be real. So it does exist; you just can't see it, taste it, feel it, hear it, or touch it on a physical plane. You see poolie, concepts are real and drive/motivate people to action. You believe in such things as love, hate, jealousy, compassion, and sorrow, don't you? You must or else you wouldn't have made this point to me:

Poolie
I think we'd be suprised at how the human mind reacts when faced with such a tragedy <sorrow> and how it can serve as a wake up call."

Even though sorrow is not an entity on to itself, it is real, it does exist beyond the literary sense, and as you said, it drives ("causes") the human mind to action.

 

[impala77]

seven, what you seem to be describing to me is a justice system where individual needs are more important than societal needs (i.e. individual family versus everyone else) my point is that while it seems all fine and good in theory, the practice would never work because much like individual voices in this thread, not every one is going to agree.
Do you honestly think that killing a murderer is going help the victims family sleep at night? Do you think it is going to take away their pain? What is it going to do assure them that this person won't hurt anyone again? okay we get rid of olsen, what about bernardo? there is always another nut waiting to take their place.
to me all that capital punishment asserts is that one life is more valuable than another and I don't want to trust that decision to just anyone, especially an imperfect legal system.