CP24.com :Neighbours Try To Oust Swingers' Clubs

[jaycam]

So does anyone have any reviews on these places?

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_24186.aspx

Wednesday June 25, 2008
CityNews.ca Staff

Sex makes the world go round, but according to several residents of an Etobicoke neighbourhood, it's not doing a whole lot for their neck of the woods.

The proliferation of so-called "swingers clubs," private establishments where consenting adults explore theirs and other people's partners, has locals calling for changes to the zoning legislation.

Among the spots in the Kipling and Lakeshore area are Club Hers and Menage A Quatre. Nearby, a longtime country-western bar turned strip club named Jay-Jay's has also come under fire recently.

"I want to get them out," Etobicoke-Lakeshore Coun. Mark Grimes stated Wednesday. "I certainly don't want them in my ward and my community does not want them."

For the most part, that appears to be the case. The innocuous-looking storefront that leads to Menage A Quatre hasn't gone unnoticed by many in the area, who charge it, and clubs like it, bring an unsavory vibe to the neighbourhood.

Hundreds already took to the street in May to protest the re-opening of Jay-Jay's as an adult establishment. 2,000 others signed a petition to express their displeasure, charging zoning loopholes are allowing such places to operate.

"This is not what we want the area to become," charged area resident Scott Waddell. "We think they need to be zoned outside of residential areas and there's droves of people that I think agree with this.

Menage A Quatre owner Richard Polara was understandably quick to defend his place. "We bring in young, elegant, affluent, beautiful people to our club and I think it's an asset to Etobicoke," he argued. "Consenting adults can do what they want to do."

The neighbourhood's streets weren't completely void of people who tended to agree.

"It's not causing any problems they should deal with all the rest of the problems around here," insisted local Lori-Ann Houston. "The crack dealers and the prostitution."

Where it matters though, at City Hall, most of council appears to agree with Grimes. There they voted Tuesday to look for ways to close such clubs down or at least have them relocated, which might yield similar results.

 

[Rockslinger]

There they voted Tuesday to look for ways to close such clubs down or at least have them relocated,

The vote would never have happened if these establishments were homo. Bloody double standard again.

 

[james t kirk]

The vote would never have happened if these establishments were homo. Bloody double standard again.

Yep.

However, if they aren't breaking the law, then it will be impossible to shut them down.

Those fools at City Council are just inviting a big lawsuit, which they will lose.

Of course, a very simple solution would be a red light zone in Toronto where the sex industry can operate completely above board.

Old Spadina Road and Lonsdale would be perfect!!

 

[Rockslinger]

Those fools at City Council are just inviting a big lawsuit, which they will lose.

Give them credit. The homos fought tooth and nail in court to defend their charter rights. It is not socially acceptable to violate a homo's charter rights nor should it be socially acceptable to violate a hetero's charter rights either. We should all be equal under the Charter.

 

[rick dickulous]

I've been in the lifestyle for 14 years. Back then the few clubs were extremely discreet and unless you knew what they were you would never suspect. In fact Club Eros used to operate out of a restaurant down there on the Lakeshore.

In the last few years the lifestyle has seen a newbie invasion of large numbers of naive couples who think that anonymous sport fucking is what swinging is all about. Veteran swingers think the newbies are airheads who have missed the point completely. The new wave of club owners are certainly not getting it.

Loud, obvious, glitzy establishments in high foot traffic neighborhoods are going to run into trouble. This is not Amsterdam or Berlin or even Montreal. It seems the newbies and that includes the club owners are determined to ignore the lessons and wisdom from the past.

This pendulum will swing back and forth for a while until the new club owners finally smarten up and do things the discreet way which has always worked before. They will then congratulate themselves on being the first club owners to invent the Canadian way of swinging, everrr. They could save a lot of time if they just listened and learned. In fact that goes for most people.

 

[Catherine]

I've been in the lifestyle for 14 years. Back then the few clubs were extremely discreet and unless you knew what they were you would never suspect. In fact Club Eros used to operate out of a restaurant down there on the Lakeshore.

In the last few years the lifestyle has seen a newbie invasion of large numbers of naive couples who think that anonymous sport fucking is what swinging is all about. Veteran swingers think the newbies are airheads who have missed the point completely. The new wave of club owners are certainly not getting it.

Loud, obvious, glitzy establishments in high foot traffic neighborhoods are going to run into trouble. This is not Amsterdam or Berlin or even Montreal. It seems the newbies and that includes the club owners are determined to ignore the lessons and wisdom from the past.

This pendulum will swing back and forth for a while until the new club owners finally smarten up and do things the discreet way which has always worked before. They will then congratulate themselves on being the first club owners to invent the Canadian way of swinging, everrr. They could save a lot of time if they just listened and learned. In fact that goes for most people.

I totally agree. Being a parent, I don't want loud broadcasts of SEX everywhere. Being a woman, with what I like to think, 'old fashioned' ideals of how society should approach the adult lifestyle and subsequent outlets for such, I would like to see a more private and discrete advertisments of such outlets. There is nothing but EGO and GREED behind wanting to broadcast without restraint these establishments, and infact, I believe, quite ironically by doing so, chase away the clients that would infact be long-time contributors to the establishment, and in consequence, seal the fate of failure as a high possibility.

Catherine

 

[james t kirk]

I've never been to a swingers club.

But, I'm totally cool with them existing in the open. As to being discreet, I agree, but when I've driven past HERS, there is NOTHING over the top about it. Just an old mish mash of a building with a sign on it with the words Club Hers. I don't see how that is in your face.

Now, walk down Lakeshore West in Etobicoke past all the Drunk Bars / "sports bars" and you get 20 drunks standing outside smoking their brains out, yelling, guys pissing in the parking lot or against the fence of the apartment, puking, fighting, yelling, yadda yadda.

But tha'ts ok? (And the cops would do nothing about it.)

The swing clubs are definitely far more low key than that.

If given the choice between living beside a "sports bar" or a swing club, I'll chose the latter.

As to the recent new wave of "newbies" in the swinging scene, well, I would think that the injection new blood would only be good for the sport. Rick's comments remind me of the same comments you heard from the old BDSM crowd lamenting how BDSM has now become more mainstream. They (the BDSM crowd) always took some sort of pride that their lifestyle were somehow (and it was) on the fringes of society and that made them feel like they were part of something. (And by default that only they, or those in their little clique only had the right to play, and then it had to be by their rules.) Now, they sort of sniff, "these people aren't part of the community" My response is always a grin and "don't take yourself so seriously"

 

[james t kirk]

Give them credit. The homos fought tooth and nail in court to defend their charter rights. It is not socially acceptable to violate a homo's charter rights nor should it be socially acceptable to violate a hetero's charter rights either. We should all be equal under the Charter.

I agree, and ultimately, the courts would agree, which is why if the boneheads on City Council think that they can legislate morality, they are going to get sued. (Which is why council is looking for a back door way to shut down swingers clubs. (Which means that the clubs will need to be very smart and pick up all the trash in the parking lot, keep their bins closed in, operate within the zoning, etc. etc etc. - don't give the city any excuse.))

The owners of the clubs (if they are smart) will band together and take on any silliness on the part of City Council and sue the City. (They will ultimately win - just like the homos did.) But of course, they have to do just that.

All you have to do is say, "it's our culture". Which I suppose the swingers could argue it is.

There are lots of gay bath houses around town. You don't hear about our fool councilors taking them on. Kyle Ray would go nuts.

 

[james t kirk]

I truly believe that this is strictly a case of one municiple politician - Grimes, taking his queue from Bill Saundercook (taking on massage parlours) and wanting to get his name in the media by taking on the sex industry.

The media LOVES shit like this because as open minded as most Canadians like to think that we are, we still love a good sex story (witness old Maxime Bernier and his GF with the 36DD's)

Grimes is a virtually unknown or unheard of councillor in the City of Toronto.

He's not Jack Layton, or Olivia Chow, (former councillors who always seemed to be in the media with their mouthes open), or Moscoe, or Giambroni, or Case Oates, or Ming Wong, or even Rob Ford.

He's never in the news.

Well, guess what, now he is. Not just the print media, but TV.

There is so much shit in this city that needs fixing - roads are like roller coasters, bridges falling apart, watermains exploding out of the ground, shitty subway system that needs fixing and expanding, crime, you name it. But none of it will get people's interest like yapping about sex clubs. You could be Mr. Grimes and hold a press conference on how you want to establish a 10 year program to fix roads in Etobicoke and no-one would come. Hold a press conference about sex clubs and it's standing room only.

 

[dajodo2]

I truly believe that this is strictly a case of one municiple politician - Grimes, taking his queue from Bill Saundercook (taking on massage parlours) and wanting to get his name in the media by taking on the sex industry.

The media LOVES shit like this because as open minded as most Canadians like to think that we are, we still love a good sex story (witness old Maxime Bernier and his GF with the 36DD's)

Grimes is a virtually unknown or unheard of councillor in the City of Toronto.

He's not Jack Layton, or Olivia Chow, (former councillors who always seemed to be in the media with their mouthes open), or Moscoe, or Giambroni, or Case Oates, or Ming Wong, or even Rob Ford.

He's never in the news.

Well, guess what, now he is. Not just the print media, but TV.

There is so much shit in this city that needs fixing - roads are like roller coasters, bridges falling apart, watermains exploding out of the ground, shitty subway system that needs fixing and expanding, crime, you name it. But none of it will get people's interest like yapping about sex clubs. You could be Mr. Grimes and hold a press conference on how you want to establish a 10 year program to fix roads in Etobicoke and no-one would come. Hold a press conference about sex clubs and it's standing room only.

The nail on the head.

Cheep politics at its finest.

 

[Mongrel4u]

Ilarge numbers of naive couples who think that anonymous sport fucking is what swinging is all about. Veteran swingers think the newbies are airheads who have missed the point completely.

Then what is it about? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I just want to understand because thats what it comes across as (and theres nothing wrong with that)

 

[james t kirk]

Then what is it about? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I just want to understand because thats what it comes across as (and theres nothing wrong with that)

Maybe it's a by-product of terb / casual sex, but I probably wouldn't want anything BUT casual annonymous sport fucking.

I have my life such as it is. It currently does not orbit around my sexuality (unlike a lot of gays who focus in their life is being gay, or the BSDM crowd, or I guess the swingers crowd)

As far as my family and friends are concerned, I've probably slept with 10 or so women in my life and lead a pretty straight lifestyle (and I pretty much do) I don't want to make swinging my lifestyle. (Not that I am currently a swinger, never been to a club, never been to a party - but I'm not opposed to trying it someday.) If and when that happens, I would keep it very under the radar. If I was to ever go to a swingers club, I'd come as a couple, and leave as a couple. I wouldn't be going there to make new friends outside of the club.

 

[rick dickulous]

Then what is it about? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I just want to understand because thats what it comes across as (and theres nothing wrong with that)

Everyone is different. When you presume everyone in swinging thinks and acts the same as you then you're not listening. Before the lifestyle scene in Toronto went mainstream, couples who "got it" would chat up and be friends with EVERYBODY. Young, old, wide or skinny, you made friends, if something happened then that was a bonus. You were interested in and talked about what others thought and felt about swinging. You found out what their couples philosophy was. Because everyone is different.

Nowadays (in the worst case) the newbies don't even speak to people if they're not prepared to fuck them. This idea that "I don't make friends with the people I swing with", that's probably the widest gulf between the old style mindset and the new.

 

[Mongrel4u]

Everyone is different. When you presume everyone in swinging thinks and acts the same as you then you're not listening. Before the lifestyle scene in Toronto went mainstream, couples who "got it" would chat up and be friends with EVERYBODY. Young, old, wide or skinny, you made friends, if something happened then that was a bonus. You were interested in and talked about what others thought and felt about swinging. You found out what their couples philosophy was. Because everyone is different.

Nowadays (in the worst case) the newbies don't even speak to people if they're not prepared to fuck them. This idea that "I don't make friends with the people I swing with", that's probably the widest gulf between the old style mindset and the new.

I see.

Thank you for the clarification.

So Kirk...

I wouldn't be going there to make new friends outside of the club.

is the "new style"

 

[Numbers]

Rick is right on the money. When my SO and I were members of Eros, we found the atmosphere and friendly crowd the attraction. My wife could dress sexy (sluty) and not get hit on by every dog that is found in so called straight clubs. We made friends with many couples, some of whom became intimate friends, and some of whom we just met up on a Saturday night and shared a few drinks and dances with.

The locations were discrete, admission controlled, and the atmosphere erotically charged. It was never about indiscriminate sport f@#&ing, it was about getting to know people and having an enjoyable night out.

Except of course for the night of the Peel morality raid. Hey, my SO says, there's a baseball team just came in. Hillarious.

 

[HaywoodJabloemy]

http://www.insidetoronto.ca/News/Etobicoke/article/50812

Grimes said neighbours have alleged that men are bringing prostitutes inside the clubs to make use of private rooms inside, calling it "a brothel".

And how would these alleged neighbours know this, even if it really was happening? Presumably something he fabricated in an attempt to legitimize his groundless grandstanding objections.
Reminds me of that series of articles in The Star 3 years ago about MPs. The writer claimed unnamed area residents told him that MPAs would regularly be outside the parlour soliciting business (yeah, right), and although strangely unnoticed by others who frequented the neighbourhood, said the ground outside of the MP was often littered with used condoms -- I suppose used inside then thrown out the windows, maybe?

The reader comments posted on the Globe and Mail article also point out Grimes is full of crap.

Maybe Toronto needs a red light district. Concentrate all
hobbyist type activity in one area...

We don't need a "red light district". Just decriminalize the business and let the MPs legally operate as brothels, like they've done in New Zealand and most of Australia.
http://www.labour.org.nz/our_mps/li...ty_of_sex_workers,_report_lianne_dalziel.html
It's not that complicated. The MPs already exist and are tolerated if not actually licensed like any other business, and don't have to be moved into some special new ghetto zone that would have to created and no one would want near them.