Deportation of Muslim Extremists ?
- Thread starter Fred Zed
- Start date
Truncador said:
Right, and there are only a few dozen extremists of any kind on this planet. The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.
Cinema, you don't have a f**king clue!! You are simply pulling out the parts of Islam that only pertain to your bigoted agenda -as if Wahhabi and Islamo-fascism are the only true forms of Islam. That's TOTALLY wrong. They're cults who have misinterpreted the Koran to fit their own agendas; much like yourself. They formed because Islam has a right to self-determination. Its in the search for self-determination where you and these cults have failed. Self-determination of Islamic faith requires 'al thanni' or Islamic methodology to debate and clarify all Koran text. So instead of finding the conservative view of pluralism and coexistance in the Koran like most traditional Muslims do, yourself and these cults mistakenly came up with intolerance and aggression.Cinema Face said:
There are 4 Islamic requirements followed to debate al thanni before an interpretation of the Koran can be drawn.
One: all parties involved should have the sincere intention to seek the Truth. You cannot just quote text to justify your position or support one party’s or group’s position. You have to learn the complete context behind the text. For eg. -the complete story behind why rage or passion is used in a particular verse. Islamic scholars can spend a life time doing this.
The second requirement are the rules of interpretation. There must be an understanding of the language and its use, the occasion of a revelation of the verses, and there must be no isolation of any one text to simply build on a theory.
The third requirement of interpretation is to respect specialization. Specialization is respected in other fields of thought, its no different in the matters of Shariah. Some interpretations need referral from people with specialized knowledge.
And the fourth requirement: etiquette. Different opinions should not be considered a deviant from Islam. Etiquette of difference should be there.
These debating requirements are used to seek the truth. But at the same time, they are fair and not too restrictive to limit the freedom of conscience or democratic rights. Wahhabi and other twisted forms of Islam, do not follow al thanni properly and fairness is not part of their game.
So my suggestion to you is to talk to a traditional Muslim before you start clarifying Islamic interpretations on your own. You are not very good at it.
*d*, I suppose you’re the one that thinks he’s right. I suppose then Islamic fundamentalists are just hapless pawns of the evil US, blowing up US and US allies interests world wide for some diabolical US plot.
Break? Gimme one huge one please!
“PS. Islamic fundamentalism is not the problem. Its just the dirty tool used of a greater political problem.”
My conclusions expressed here are not my own. They are based on Islam’s own scriptures and teachings as told by Muhammad. I’m quoting the Qur’an and Hadith.
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
I don’t have a bigoted agenda, you do. I haven't seen you make a single non-US bashing post. Who has the agenda?
Break? Gimme one huge one please!
“PS. Islamic fundamentalism is not the problem. Its just the dirty tool used of a greater political problem.”
My conclusions expressed here are not my own. They are based on Islam’s own scriptures and teachings as told by Muhammad. I’m quoting the Qur’an and Hadith.
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
I don’t have a bigoted agenda, you do. I haven't seen you make a single non-US bashing post. Who has the agenda?
I might as well talk to the wind. Did you apply 'al thanni' to interpret those quotes from the Koran? Do you know the context, tone of intensity, the situation that caused such loss of composure? The Koran is not the Bible. Quotes can't stand alone. The texts are full of emotion, passion, zeal -what all humans express when fear, anger or love overwhelm them. That's why traditional Islam developed a fair method to clarify all the quotes in the Koran soundly. It gives a complete interpretation, not fragmented and bias. It does not take only a select number of angry quotes at face value and draw conclusions(such as what you are doing with both the Koran and my angry posts on US foreign policy). They're shortsighted. When the Koran is misinterpreted purposely without al thanni, it usually means there is a hidden agenda behind it. And many times that agenda is hate. That's why its used as a tool in terrorism -to convey hate, but finds its roots in the discord of a deeper political problem.Cinema Face said:
You mean you think we should be deporting people because a book they didn't write says something 'we' find objectionable? Isn't that pretty much why McCarthyism is now a term of abuse? Don't we superior western secular democrats practise the rule of law where people are penalized only for their proven bad actions, not for some half-baked suspicion we might have about what they might do because we 'know' what their holy book means?Truncador said:Now if only the average Moslem would put as much time and effort into arguing that the Quran doesn't say what it says, we wouldn't have to be talking about deporting anyone.
If we practised a teensy bit of real Christianity instead of preaching the near fascist paranoid drivel of our so-called leaders, we wouldn't be thinking of deporting anyone for thoughtcrimes, let alone pretending we 'have' to.
I'm sure the average Muslim is too busy doing all the usual things most other Canadians are doing. Your comment suggests that Muslims in general are deeply preoccupied with the endlessly boring philosphical trivialities that lurk at the root of most major religions. This is pure nonsense and you are a fool for buying into this hysterical media-induced caricature of "the average Muslim".Truncador said:Now if only the average Moslem would put as much time and effort into arguing that the Quran doesn't say what it says, we wouldn't have to be talking about deporting anyone.
Most Canadians couldn't give a rat's ass for these theological minutiae. They couldn't tell you any more about selected passages in the bible than the "average Muslim" could about the Quran. Just because there are lots of cars in the parking lot at the local mosque doesn't mean that the average Muslim is really into this esoteric mumbo jumbo. It isn't normal for people to dwell on obscure and ancient scripts or irrelevant theological dogma. Some of us still feel socially obligated to attend services at our local church or synogogue or mosque but you can't assume that many are committed to religious extremism or terrorism. Those cars parked at the mosque simply tell us that there are people inside attending religious services alongside other like minded Muslims. That it.
This is probably true- and arguably the crux of the problem. It's likely that many attend out of some sense of personal obligation and in order to socialize with others from the old country. The result is that they don't confront the bearded radical- supported by their tithes- screaming the abovementioned Suras from the pulpit. I imagine the following thoughts going through the head of many such a worshipper as his Imam rants and yells:slowpoke said:
"Oh no, not again. I wish he'd shut up about all this jihad stuff already. But what do I know about theology ? I'm a businessman, a guy who gets things done in the real world. Oh well. In an hour I'll be home with a big bag of potato chips. Mmm, potato chips..."
Meanwhile, two or three idealistic and impressionable young men in the congregation (some college kids perhaps, who heard a secular version of the same anti-American rant from their sociology prof at school earlier that day) get a rather different impression of the impassioned, and uncontested, call to arms. These approach the Imam after the service- who refers them to somebody who knows somebody who can give them a certain address in Pakistan...
I won't disagree with your above scenario in general. But the "two or three idealistic and impressionable young men in the congregation (some college kids perhaps, who heard a secular version of the same anti-American rant from their sociology prof at school earlier that day) get a rather different impression of the impassioned, and uncontested, call to arms" is more about you buying into an unrealistic media feeding frenzy than anything that can be shown to actually exist here in Canada. 9/11 is getting kinda long in the tooth. There should have been at least a minor manifestation of your "two or three idealistic and impressionable young men" occurring here in Canada since 9/11. But it hasn't happened. So your assumptions are becoming more unlikely with each passing day. Canada isn't the US or Spain or Britain. Mark my words: This isn't a Canadian problem.Truncador said:
