RUBBISH
Other than letting everybody here know you have an union covering your ass, just what does your rant have to do with my post?
She is still an idiot.
FAST
Entitled interns fired for demanding dress code change at their employer
- Thread starter canada-man
- Start date
Other than letting everybody here know you have an union covering your ass, just what does your rant have to do with my post?
She is still an idiot.
FAST
Thanks for that fuji.If you act that way you will end up with staff who never tell you when you are wrong and never tell you about ways you could improve your organization. You should reward people for challenging the status quo, provided that if you do have good reasons for the status quo that they fall in line after learning about it.
In that case you wind up with better employees who in this example would not only ultimately comply with the dress code, but understand WHY, and in turn become ambassadors of the culture who can explain it to others.
This is assuming there's a good reason for the dress code. If there's no reason....
If you punish people for questioning the way things are done your business will eventually lose to a faster, nimbler business whose employees challenge the status quo and evolve their business into a more efficient one than yours
This is, in a nutshell, why Toyota ate the market share of every US automaker until they also allowed their employees to challenge the status quo like Toyota employees can. It turns out that often everybody but management knows what the problems are.
Especially the part were a Japanese female employee challenges a Japanese companies management,...hilarious.
Please keep it coming, but warn me first, in case I'm drinking coffee.
FAST
If it was a paid internship, then the interns really screwed up! They should have opened their eyes a little wider and tried to see their situation from other perspectives. The dress code wasn't put in place arbitrarily. Either the company is trying to maintain a certain image or it's for safety reasons.It doesn't say in the article whether they were paid or unpaid. Interns where I work are paid.
Some of what they teach you in school sounds good in theory, but in practice is another story. Ganging up on your employer using a "tactic" would rub most people the wrong way.
Interns trying to push their weight? LOL
They better hope their names don't get splashed around the internet. They'll have a hard time getting jobs in their area from HR managers taking note and blacklisting them.
Were the interns paid? Just because someone is an intern doesn't mean they get $0. Some internships are paid, some are not.
They better hope their names don't get splashed around the internet. They'll have a hard time getting jobs in their area from HR managers taking note and blacklisting them.
Were the interns paid? Just because someone is an intern doesn't mean they get $0. Some internships are paid, some are not.
To be fair, aside from unionized government jobs (which are more service based, than private sector profit based), the majority of companies that are heavy into unionized labour are among the least successful nowadays.rubbish
she gave free labor in exchange for a learning experience
what she learned was to hate the workplace where employees concerns are not valued
I now work in a union shop where can I challenge my employer on any issue without any fear
I hate non union environments
I felt like a black in the deep south during segregation days
always bending over to please the man as they have the power of reference axe hanging over your head and never say what you think
The most successful companies with the best pay are companies that have low union membership, and the best paid employees are non-unionized as well.
Nothing wrong with challenging a manager or employer. Guess what? Non-unionized people do that as well. There is no fear anywhere, except from people who think management is always out to get them.
The purpose of a company and management is to steer the company successfully best they can. The better the company does, the better everything else goes. The problems come from people or processes where management notices there's wasted resources, wasted money and lazy employees trying to take advantage of the situation.
No company wants to lose good employees. Also, every company wants to lose the bad employees. Unions protect the bad ones.
And that's what I'll never understand. Unions like to protect themselves. But what they don't realize is that if it was not unionized, the better employees would be paid a lot more and the bad ones would be fired or make less. Just like the office workers. But if unionized guys all want to be paid the exact same amount in their ranking/tier, despite Bob whose great, and Bill who is awful, then so be it. That's the compensation structure agreed upon. Office workers would never stand for that.
Unfortunately, I think unionized workers don't get educated enough on how a company's payroll works. Probably the union leader spews out all kinds of fear tactics.... along with the fact the big union guys get paid $1M or more.
Sizeable companies (I'm not talking about mom and pop places where policies are loosey goosey and change everyday) that have a mix of union and non-union labour have set wage increases set by upper management and the board. Let's say they agree to a 3% increase for next year.
What happens is that 3% increase has to be split among the 1,000 workers (let's say 500 union and 500 office). The union payout structure may be done so it's very evenly split among ranks so everyone gets 3% based on the multi year agreement. Larry the Loser gets 3%, while Steve Superstar also gets 3%.
The office workers share of 3% is split among people who get 0% (bad ones who are on the firing line)..... to 1%, 2%..... star players may get 10% salary increase. But at the end, it'll avg out to around 3%.
No office worker would agree to blanket wage increases or "same pay structures".
Shocked and Awed that I agree with CC on this one. As usual FAST also has a good take. YF the usual nonsense. My simple advice is to play by the rules and make a few million bucks, retire when you are 45 and then wear whatever the hell you want, sign petitions, march wherever. Don't want to follow rules? Start your own business and God bless you if you succeed. Otherwise STFU and get with the program or find another position elsewhere that "resonates" with you. On the matter of internships I remain conflicted. Personally, I could never have someone work for me who was not compensated for their time/effort.
You mean like, say, a person who once got shit-canned for merely making a suggestion to management once when they were a lowly intern?Nothing wrong with challenging a manager or employer. Guess what? Non-unionized people do that as well. There is no fear anywhere, except from people who think management is always out to get them.
You're almost as adorable as Canadaman Man. When a company is not unionized, the better employees are NOT paid more. They are paid the same as what employees are paid everywhere - the bare fucking minimum that the company can get away with paying them while still keeping them employed. If you think it works any other way, you are just as delusional as the most starry-eyed communist.And that's what I'll never understand. Unions like to protect themselves. But what they don't realize is that if it was not unionized, the better employees would be paid a lot more and the bad ones would be fired or make less.
And yet, pretty much the only place where unions have made any headway in the past few decades is in white collar-type environments. Funny that. ...But still, yeah. Unions sure do suck. Screw them and all those silly labour laws they helped usher in. Surely we'd be better off without them, unions and laws both.Just like the office workers. But if unionized guys all want to be paid the exact same amount in their ranking/tier, despite Bob whose great, and Bill who is awful, then so be it. That's the compensation structure agreed upon. Office workers would never stand for that.
You are welcome. If you want to learn more about it, Toyota calls it Kaizen. You can Google that . It is widely credited as the reason why Toyota so dramatically exceeded the quality and efficiency of American companies. They have since adopted the concept themselves and have been catching up.Thanks for that fuji.
Especially the part were a Japanese female employee challenges a Japanese companies management,...hilarious.
Please keep it coming, but warn me first, in case I'm drinking coffee.
FAST
I have seen no evidence of that. In fact, the reaction of management makes me suspect that they have no confidence in their own ability to explain the policy and therefore think fear is the only way they can maintain their authority in the face of questions about policy.The dress code wasn't put in place arbitrarily.
Wrong.You're almost as adorable as Canadaman Man. When a company is not unionized, the better employees are NOT paid more. They are paid the same as what employees are paid everywhere - the bare fucking minimum that the company can get away with paying them while still keeping them employed. If you think it works any other way, you are just as delusional as the most starry-eyed communist.
A company will pay what it takes to get the skills they need to keep the company humming along.
It's a fear tactic that companies are super cheap. If that was the fact, every corporation would hire people and pay them only $40,000/yr knowing there will always be people out there who will take anything.
At my company, all the account managers get paid $100,000 minimum, plus bonus and all the perks they get.
I get paid over $100,000 myself + perks. If the company was that cheap, then fire me and hire someone for $50,000. And do that for all the office jobs. They won't.
In fact, the lowest paid people are the clerks and coordinators who all get paid $65,000 minimum. No office workers make less than that, except the interns who get about $16/hr (I think). Excluding those low ranking clerical jobs, every non-manager gets about $90,000 on avg. All managers get $120,000+. Directors more. VPs the most.
Most office jobs have a pay bonus structure of about 15% too (some more, some less). Warehouse guys structure is 5%.
Guess what? The warehouse guys avg about $25/hr. Add in OT pay, and it might be $30/hr or so annually. So comparing jobs, the low rank clerical workers get paid as much as the avg warehouse guy.
Without knowing what industry this is and what the dress code says - it's hard to speculate.
I know my workplace has a business casual attire - generally this means collared shirts, no shorts for men, no strapless or spaghetti strap tops for woman, dresses too short, and cleavage is generally a no no (much to my chagrin).. However I do see the occasional coop / intern dressing in a skirt thats much too short or a top that is waiting to burst open - and in general a little talk with the manager sorts this out.
However the intern asked for relaxing some of the rules - although I agree with her in that they are not overall outrageous (say non leather shoes) but her act probably distracted from her work.
I'm not surprised the intern got fired - she basically incited a rising for something so stupid as clothing - she should be doing her work. Her focus is clearly not on taking advantage of the experience and learning.
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/...-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html
The original source and reply is much better written than the one the OP linked (sorry OP)
I know my workplace has a business casual attire - generally this means collared shirts, no shorts for men, no strapless or spaghetti strap tops for woman, dresses too short, and cleavage is generally a no no (much to my chagrin).. However I do see the occasional coop / intern dressing in a skirt thats much too short or a top that is waiting to burst open - and in general a little talk with the manager sorts this out.
However the intern asked for relaxing some of the rules - although I agree with her in that they are not overall outrageous (say non leather shoes) but her act probably distracted from her work.
I'm not surprised the intern got fired - she basically incited a rising for something so stupid as clothing - she should be doing her work. Her focus is clearly not on taking advantage of the experience and learning.
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/...-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html
The original source and reply is much better written than the one the OP linked (sorry OP)
Companies have a right to ask employees to dress properly. Some offices still institute suit and ties. Over the past 10-15 years, old school formal attire has mostly disappeared for business casual. But some places still make men dress up. If people don't like it, leave.
It's amazing that this initiative came from an intern. And that the interns buddied up and all banded together to sign a petition for better dress codes.
I'd fire them for causing trouble too.
It's amazing that this initiative came from an intern. And that the interns buddied up and all banded together to sign a petition for better dress codes.
I'd fire them for causing trouble too.
Just what the hell does any of that have to do with some idiot intern,...NOTHING.I have seen no evidence of that. In fact, the reaction of management makes me suspect that they have no confidence in their own ability to explain the policy and therefore think fear is the only way they can maintain their authority in the face of questions about policy.
Management has absolutely NO need/requirement or benefit to anybody, to wast time, explaining anything to some idiot intern.
She on the other hand, needs some one to explain to her that she is out of touch with reality.
I've had recent grads work for me, pull similar ridiculous stunts,...and guess what, when my dept. needed to cut staff, guess who I recommended for the pink slip.
They eventually figure it out, or end up in a slinging burgers for the rest of their lives.
FAST
Clearly employers have that right. There's no question of that. Also there's no doubt that in some businesses there's a great reason for a strict dress code.Companies have a right to ask employees to dress properly. Some offices still institute suit and ties. Over the past 10-15 years, old school formal attire has mostly disappeared for business casual. But some places still make men dress up. If people don't like it, leave.
It's amazing that this initiative came from an intern. And that the interns buddied up and all banded together to sign a petition for better dress codes.
I'd fire them for causing trouble too.
The question is whether this was handled properly by managers at this company.
In my view this is a complete management failure. Instead of using this as a teaching opportunity to educate the new folks about the culture and the important reasons for the dress code managers acted like asking questions was a threat to their authority.
They seem like weak managers to me, unable to control their team other than through fear, acting defensive, creating an environment in which nobody ever questions the boss.
I bet their company is on the ropes, they have trouble retaining good employees, competitors are killing them, and that they don't understand why.
I disagree.They seem like weak managers to me, unable to control their team other than through fear, acting defensive, creating an environment in which nobody ever questions the boss.
As a manager myself, firing people is the hardest thing to do. Not only is there possible legal issues that can arise from it, but also the whole hassle or rehiring, retraining and explaining to people why someone (or a group) was let go.
Anyone who claims pink slipping people is just a normal task or easy to do is lying and has never managed people.
It takes guts to fire people because the normal thing to do is just wait it out and hope things get better. But sometimes the best thing to do is be proactive and take out the trash before it stinks up the entire office.
If there's more to this story, if these interns showed an ongoing pattern of behavior, then sure. But that is not what the story described.I disagree.
As a manager myself, firing people is the hardest thing to do. Not only is there possible legal issues that can arise from it, but also the whole hassle or rehiring, retraining and explaining to people why someone (or a group) was let go.
Anyone who claims pink slipping people is just a normal task or easy to do is lying and has never managed people.
It takes guts to fire people because the normal thing to do is just wait it out and hope things get better. But sometimes the best thing to do is be proactive and take out the trash before it stinks up the entire office.
Sure , we are getting only one side, the company has not chimed in. But with the big if, if the interns story is honestly reported , this was a decision made from a single data point.
No doubt if management does respond we may learn that this was the third similar incident or other details left out and that new information would change my opinion. But the information at hand taken as it is: that's bad management.
Sorry Fuji - but did you even read the letter written by the intern - here's an extract:If there's more to this story, if these interns showed an ongoing pattern of behavior, then sure. But that is not what the story described.
Sure , we are getting only one side, the company has not chimed in. But with the big if, if the interns story is honestly reported , this was a decision made from a single data point.
No doubt if management does respond we may learn that this was the third similar incident or other details left out and that new information would change my opinion. But the information at hand taken as it is: that's bad management.
"I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code. We accompanied the proposal with a petition, signed by all of the interns (except for one who declined to sign it) and gave it to our managers to consider. Our proposal requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code."
Basically multiply managers in the company told various interns there's a strict dress code for business attire when asked - and that's the rules. And what does the intern do not liking the answer? She gathers signatures and gets a petition going to management and HR about it. It's pretty clear she was explained that was what was required for her job - she just didn't like the answer. Instead of a suit and leather shoes - she wanted to wear running shoes and sandals... yeah something is wrong here.
That's still a single incident. She asked about the policy and then challenged the policy. One incident.Sorry Fuji - but did you even read the letter written by the intern - here's an extract:
"I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code. We accompanied the proposal with a petition, signed by all of the interns (except for one who declined to sign it) and gave it to our managers to consider. Our proposal requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code."
Basically multiply managers in the company told various interns there's a strict dress code for business attire when asked - and that's the rules. And what does the intern do not liking the answer? She gathers signatures and gets a petition going to management and HR about it. It's pretty clear she was explained that was what was required for her job - she just didn't like the answer.
The response to the petition indicates the managers could not competently explain the need for the policy and instead felt they had to instill fear into their remaining employees by taking drastic action.
I see weakness in that response.
Yup.Fuji - it's not a single incident - clearly we are not reading the same thing as multiply managers and HR was involved (as well as multiple attempts to get an exception). Anyway let's agree to disagree.
Looks like they got shot down by the managers when they all asked. Then the formal petition came around and it was pink slip city. So in their baseball game, a strike out occurs after two strikes. Company rules. Strike two, you're out.
And besides, what entitled fucknuts would want to do a formal complaint about wearing running shoes and sandals in the office? I can see petitions for health and safety issues, a petition due to HR clawing back benefits, or the company clamping down on sick days or something, but shoes?
That wouldn't fly at my office. Even on casual Friday, people wear jeans, but I still don't remember people coming in with running shoes. Not saying nobody ever has, but in an office environment, most places still have a minimum level of professional attire. And people are smart enough to use intuition to know right from wrong.
Nobody needs a handbook to tell them not to come in wearing sweatpants or halter tops or baseball caps.
