F____ING Emissions Test

[Esco!]

The Drive Clean program is just another way for the government to grab more of your money while looking like they are doing something about a problem when in fact they really aren't.

Exactly, that was the whole point of this thread

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

I've yet to see a car of any age that emits near as much smoke as a chimney from a fireplace or wood stove or all those backyard camp fires that people have in the summertime. Many nights I cannot open a window because the smell of smoke is so strong. Yet the government doesn't seem at all concerned about them. The Drive Clean program is just another way for the government to grab more of your money while looking like they are doing something about a problem when in fact they really aren't.

First of all, the Ontario government doesn't make any money from the Drive Clean program. The facility that performs the test gets part of the money charged, while the rest goes to the company that runs the program for the government, Protect Air (I think it's $12 or something, the testing facility gets the rest). There isn't even any P.S.T. charged for the test.

Secondly, it's not the car's smoke that causes the problems with the environment, it's the unseen gases. One of the primary byproducts of an internal combustion engine is CO2. If you could acheive perfect combustion, H2O and CO2 would be the only emissions from the tailpipe. There's not much that can be done with CO2 as it relates to IC engines. As you probably know, CO2 emissions are considered to be the main cause of Global Warming. Factor in smog generating Nitrous Oxides and Hydra Carbon emissions and there is some nasty stuff coming out of your tailpipe. Most of it unseen.

Ride your bike to work and keep pumping the hardwood in the ole fireplace, the environment will thank you for it.

 

[karmastang]

How? I believe this is a good policy as a process to get better with the environment. I wish the govt would go further and eliminate cars that are older than a certain vintage. That way, the govt would also be forced to improve the metro system as people would rely on it more.

Ok this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. So people with 15 year old cars that are well maintained and run perfectly should be forced to junk them and buy a new car? Should I also be forced to scrap my classic Mustang in mint condition that gets driven maybe 10 times a year (and has never come close to failing emissions)? Go after the trucks and bussed that spew black smoke all day long...leave those of us who know how to maintain a vehicle alone.

 

[Esco!]

First of all, the Ontario government doesn't make any money from the Drive Clean program. The facility that performs the test gets part of the money charged, while the rest goes to the company that runs the program for the government

And how do you know there's no kickbacks going on?????
Instead of Adscam we'll call it Airscam, how's that???

 

[hambone]

Okay, I a little lost here. I have to renew my plate sticker next week. I do it every yr like everyone else. I bought this car in 2004, it is '97. How do I know if I need an emissions test because I have yet to ever do one except for at the purchase of a used car.

KWI

If it is a "97 you need to do the test this year. Your renewal form will tell you if you need it but is every two years and this year is for vehicles from odd years as opposed to even years.

 

[Hard Idle]

As far as I am concerned, your car fails the test, your plate should be pulled right there and then until such time as you effect repairs.

My opinion is that if your car fails, you should have to repair it to whatever extent, regardless of cost, it takes to pass the test.

If your car is a P.O.S. it should be off the road. If you need a new engine for 10 grand, then you need to spend 10 grand. No exceptions EVER.
.

This is a fundamnetal misunderstanding of how emission controls and testing are designed to work. Like blood sugar or blood pressure, an engine's emission readings vary from hour to hour, depending on varuois inputs. You can take any car -old or brand new - test it 7 times and and get a different result every time.

Cars are actually designed to run rich, idle high and bypass the emissions controls while the car is cold - this is to help the engine reach an acceptable temperature more quickly, and to heat up certain emissions control elemnts sooner so that they can work properly for the duration of driving - otherwise it would take at least 30KM of continuous highway driving for the car to reach it's peak temperature and efficiency.

Nevertheless it is still often diffiuclt for cars to run as clean as they're supposed to with the combination of clod starts, short trips at lots of idle which city drivers throw at them.

Until the testing takes this into account, ANY car can fail at random unless it has been properly conditioned before the test, even if there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it.

What you are proposing would simply give mechanics the green light to bleed people for repairs on a car which might have passed a test later that very same day.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if your vehicle fails the test, you are only required to spend 300 bucks and then you get a a get out of jail free card.

The rules were recently changed, but I think originally there was one repair limit for your first Conditional pass, a higher limit for a second one ($700 or $800 I think) and no conditional passes after that.

 

[james t kirk]

So Canadian Tire fakes the results? I don't trust the Gov't, so I'll take my chances with Joe's garage.

A question for you. What is the poverty level at in Canada? Approx dollar amount. And how many people work for minimum wage and need to drive to get to work? And where are they going to get $10,000 from?

Sorry but I guess that was 3 questions. Oh well, the pass is a one time thing, and the Gov't is being lenient, so as to not create hardship. You can't have a second fail, but it gives you time to afford a newer engine, or another vehicle before you have to get tested again, if you are one of the unfortunate ones that works for minimum wage.

Give your head a shake.

Fuck your NDP socialist bullshit.

I don't give a fuck what the poverty level in Canada is. Last time I checked, driving a car is not guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

If you want to drive a car, it needs to be up to spec. I don't fucking car if you make 8 bucks an hour, or 80 grand a year. No-one should get a pass on polluting the environment simply because they will endure "hardship"

Puh-leeeze. They probably have lots of money for beer. The very idea of the noble poor is the biggest pile of steaming horsehit I have ever heard of.

You want to drive, your car needs to meet minimum specs. As far as I am concerned, it should be like Britain where they have their MOT tests not only for emissions, but safety as well. Car fails? Car gets deplated on the spot and you can either pay to repair it or tow it home, or the place can sell it for scrap for you.

Too poor to drive a car up to spec? Solution - Take the bus. Last time I checked, the TTC pretty much traverses the entire City of Toronto.

 

[james t kirk]

This is a fundamnetal misunderstanding of how emission controls and testing are designed to work. Like blood sugar or blood pressure, an engine's emission readings vary from hour to hour, depending on varuois inputs. You can take any car -old or brand new - test it 7 times and and get a different result every time.

Cars are actually designed to run rich, idle high and bypass the emissions controls while the car is cold - this is to help the engine reach an acceptable temperature more quickly, and to heat up certain emissions control elemnts sooner so that they can work properly for the duration of driving - otherwise it would take at least 30KM of continuous highway driving for the car to reach it's peak temperature and efficiency.

Nevertheless it is still often diffiuclt for cars to run as clean as they're supposed to with the combination of clod starts, short trips at lots of idle which city drivers throw at them.

Until the testing takes this into account, ANY car can fail at random unless it has been properly conditioned before the test, even if there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it.

What you are proposing would simply give mechanics the green light to bleed people for repairs on a car which might have passed a test later that very same day.


The rules were recently changed, but I think originally there was one repair limit for your first Conditional pass, a higher limit for a second one ($700 or $800 I think) and no conditional passes after that.

I am well aware of the theories and principles behind the four stroke internal combustion engine.

The test is always done when the engine is hot so that the air fuel mixture is operating at its normal efficiency.

The car is tested first at idle, and then taken up to 1,500 RPM I believe and tested again. The vehicle must pass both tests.

As far as gouging from mechanics goes, that is very simply avoided. If your car fails the emissions test and you don't trust where you just had it tested, you wheel it off the hoist and drive it over to your nearest garage who you do trust.

If cars fail, they are not deplated. You are free to drive away, you just don't get your pass to get your sticker renewal.

Therefore, you drive it to your mechanic that you trust and get it properly repaired.

Lastly, of all the vehicles I have ever owned that I have had to have emissions tested NONE of them have ever failed. Amazing eh. Goes to show you what proper maintenance can accomplish.

No-one has the right to drive a shit box and pollute the hell out of the air.

 

[goodtime]

Why are there cars on the road that are within the years of testing, that you can see their exhaust at all hours of the day? There are "rice burners" and mini vans that come from the company with the "star" as their logo, that smoke down the road, burning oil, and or antifreeze, that somehow make it through an emissions test. The test is and always has been flawed. I know guys driving classic muscle cars, that have cleaner exhaust than some of the 80s and 90s 4 bangers out there, so don't go there.

There's a mini crackdown as some shops on the take, passing black & blue smokers.

There's liquids that temp surpress the CO2 level. Tor Star had articles to show flaw in system. For gov to turn it from a cash grab to truely care about environment.

 

[pussylicker]

Fuck your NDP socialist bullshit.

I don't give a fuck what the poverty level in Canada is. Last time I checked, driving a car is not guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

If you want to drive a car, it needs to be up to spec. I don't fucking car if you make 8 bucks an hour, or 80 grand a year. No-one should get a pass on polluting the environment simply because they will endure "hardship"

Puh-leeeze. They probably have lots of money for beer. The very idea of the noble poor is the biggest pile of steaming horsehit I have ever heard of.

You want to drive, your car needs to meet minimum specs. As far as I am concerned, it should be like Britain where they have their MOT tests not only for emissions, but safety as well. Car fails? Car gets deplated on the spot and you can either pay to repair it or tow it home, or the place can sell it for scrap for you.

Too poor to drive a car up to spec? Solution - Take the bus. Last time I checked, the TTC pretty much traverses the entire City of Toronto.

Sounds like you are the farkin NDPr here. Get off your farkin hobby horse. You sound like the type of person, who throws bandage solutions at problems, without actually fixing any real problems. Figures you'd bring up the rights and freedoms BS. I hate to tell you this, but if you are who I think you are, you don't have any rights.

I hate to tell you this but there is more to Ontario than just Toronto. I also hate to tell you that your precious TTC isn't efficient, and doesn't cover much of Ontario. Your trolleys and street cars, and subway run on electricity generated by coal fired plants. Your diesel powered buses belch out black smoke. Your ridership isn't where it could be let alone where it should be. You have toooooooooooo many taxis on the street.

I hate to tell you this, but it used to be Toronto where the smog was, now it drifts up to Barrie, on to Muskoka, across to Peterbourough, Kingston, and so on.

I hate to tell you this, but most towns don't have public transit. If you live in rural Ontario, there isn't any transit at all, so you have to drive yourself. Thus the need for a car when you only make $8.00 per hour. You can't afford new on that income.

You don't care what the poverty level is? A general rule of thumb is that there are more people earning less than $30,000 per year than more than, and last time I checked, there are hundreds of 1,000s of people earning less than $30,000. So your solution would have more people on welfare living in the city, because the can't get to work in the country?

You mention $80,000 a year, so if you live in Toronto, can you afford a cottage on that income too? Funny, but 1,000s of people drive by Barrie every weekend going to their cottages, to drive their boats, seadoos, skidoos, 4wheelers etc. I guess the people with the most money do the most recreating in cottage country, and drive the big gas guzzling SUVs, and bring the smog north. The more money you make, = the more polluting you do? While the rich drink wine, and pollute Muskoka, the "noble poor" drink beer and recycle their empties. The rich pollute? Yes the rich pollute. Very few recycle, cause it's too much hassle. They leave the cottage on sunday night or monday morning and race back to the city, but oh, they had to leave their garbage out all week, so instead of recycling, most of the recyclebles end up in the dump. Oh, where does Toronto put it's garbage? Oh, they waste fuel by trucking it to Michigan.

I grew up in Muskoka, and every year watched as a few arrogant people from Toronto came up and destroyed my backyard. They still are.

 

[moneytalks]

Just one question, how can my 2001 pathfinder possibly emit bad emissions?????????

It depends on how well one maintains their vehicle.

 

[james t kirk]

Sounds like you are the farkin NDPr here. Get off your farkin hobby horse. You sound like the type of person, who throws bandage solutions at problems, without actually fixing any real problems. Figures you'd bring up the rights and freedoms BS. I hate to tell you this, but if you are who I think you are, you don't have any rights.

I hate to tell you this but there is more to Ontario than just Toronto. I also hate to tell you that your precious TTC isn't efficient, and doesn't cover much of Ontario. Your trolleys and street cars, and subway run on electricity generated by coal fired plants. Your diesel powered buses belch out black smoke. Your ridership isn't where it could be let alone where it should be. You have toooooooooooo many taxis on the street.

I hate to tell you this, but it used to be Toronto where the smog was, now it drifts up to Barrie, on to Muskoka, across to Peterbourough, Kingston, and so on.

I hate to tell you this, but most towns don't have public transit. If you live in rural Ontario, there isn't any transit at all, so you have to drive yourself. Thus the need for a car when you only make $8.00 per hour. You can't afford new on that income.

You don't care what the poverty level is? A general rule of thumb is that there are more people earning less than $30,000 per year than more than, and last time I checked, there are hundreds of 1,000s of people earning less than $30,000. So your solution would have more people on welfare living in the city, because the can't get to work in the country?

You mention $80,000 a year, so if you live in Toronto, can you afford a cottage on that income too? Funny, but 1,000s of people drive by Barrie every weekend going to their cottages, to drive their boats, seadoos, skidoos, 4wheelers etc. I guess the people with the most money do the most recreating in cottage country, and drive the big gas guzzling SUVs, and bring the smog north. The more money you make, = the more polluting you do? While the rich drink wine, and pollute Muskoka, the "noble poor" drink beer and recycle their empties. The rich pollute? Yes the rich pollute. Very few recycle, cause it's too much hassle. They leave the cottage on sunday night or monday morning and race back to the city, but oh, they had to leave their garbage out all week, so instead of recycling, most of the recyclebles end up in the dump. Oh, where does Toronto put it's garbage? Oh, they waste fuel by trucking it to Michigan.

I grew up in Muskoka, and every year watched as a few arrogant people from Toronto came up and destroyed my backyard. They still are.

Rural Ontario doesn't have emission testing so climb off your high horse.

BTW, Toronto is the economic engine of Canada.

If there was no me, there'd be no you. Every year 17 billion MORE tax dollars flow out to the Feds and Province than EVER come back. This pays for things like hospitals, roads, schools, etc. etc. in places like Muskoka and Barrie.

Imagine if Toronto could keep the taxes it generates, what kind of a city we could have. At the very least, we could build a hell of a subway system and pay for it in about, oh, a year.

At the very least you should be taking our trash as thanks for us supporting your lifestyle. That way, we wouldn't have to send it to Michigan. There are plenty of places to build new dumps around Muskoka.

 

[Hard Idle]

As far as gouging from mechanics goes, that is very simply avoided. If your car fails the emissions test and you don't trust where you just had it tested, you wheel it off the hoist and drive it over to your nearest garage who you do trust.

If cars fail, they are not deplated. You are free to drive away, you just don't get your pass to get your sticker renewal.

Therefore, you drive it to your mechanic that you trust and get it properly repaired.

Yes, but your original post argued that the a car that fail should be immediately impounded without any possibility of a second opinion.

I've worked in automotive customer service and dealer support fro a couple of manufacturers and have heard of plenty of fluke failures or improperly administered test with cars less than 5 years old, which could have left the owner to pay for a wild goose chase of diagnostics and speculative repairs, if that one test had been the final word.

Just because experienced and savy car owners can't be duped by repair shops, don't think it doesn't happen all the time to auto-retards (sorry to say it, but usually women going alone...) who don't know how to question or anticipate anything.

 

[Hard Idle]

Fuck your NDP socialist bullshit.
Too poor to drive a car up to spec? Solution - Take the bus. Last time I checked, the TTC pretty much traverses the entire City of Toronto.

You're the one who sounds like an NDP enviro Nazi - but at least the NDP'ers also focus on the industrial poluters and not just the little guy.

Your solution reveals that you have never had to get around by bus, and a complete lack of first hand knowledge of the low income world.
Jobs in wareheousing, transportation and light manufacturing pay over 60% higher in Brampton and western Mississauga than they do in Toronto, or the more accessible Markham, Vaughn & Ajax. In Oakville, the hourly wages for labour can be twice as high.

Commuting to these places by transit requires paying cash up front for a all three of TTC, GO & Local transit. It can actually be more expensive than running an old, small economy car. Also, if people loose their job or hours, they can sell the car for emergency money - but they can't get a refund on prepaid tickets and passes they no longer need.

For some people without a car, not taking a better paying job is simply a matter of not having enough cash to pay all of the extra transit fares for 2 weeks before they get a paycheque at their new place. Not to mention that it effectively adds 3-4 hours a day of unpaid time away from home. Many areas are not serviced at all late at night or early mornings.

 

[pussylicker]

Rural Ontario doesn't have emission testing so climb off your high horse.

BTW, Toronto is the economic engine of Canada.

At the very least you should be taking our trash as thanks for us supporting your lifestyle. That way, we wouldn't have to send it to Michigan. There are plenty of places to build new dumps around Muskoka.

When you have your facts straight, come on back to reality. Rural Ontario does have to comply with emissions testing. "On January 1, 2001 the program expanded to Phase 2, urban centres from Peterborough to Windsor and the Niagara Region. On July 1, 2002 Drive Clean expanded to include the balance of the southern Ontario smog zone. In eastern Ontario, this included centres such as Ottawa, Kingston and Cornwall, and in southwestern Ontario, Chatham-Kent. The light-duty vehicle and non-diesel heavy-duty vehicle components of Drive Clean are being introduced in areas which have a history of poor air quality (smog), a population of 50,000 or more or are within the commuting zone of an urban area of 50,000 or more. Heavy-duty diesel vehicles are being tested province-wide because these vehicles travel throughout the province, including the Southern Ontario smog corridor." This includes Barrie, Orillia, and Washago at the north of Simcoe county.

As far as dumps go, you sound like you'd dump anywhere that suits you. Why has David Miller been called upon to clean up the streets of Toronto?

While Toronto might be the financial center of Canada, there is a lot more manufacturing done outside of Toronto, and if it wasn't for Ontario and Canada's natural resources, you wouldn't have a lifestyle. Ontario, not Toronto, accounts for 39% of the country’s population, 40% of Canadian employment and 42% of Canada's GDP, and Toronto is less than 25% of Ontario's population, or approx 8.3% of Canada. So where did you learn your math?

No-one has the right to drive a shit box and pollute the hell out of the air.

Can I ask if you've ever polluted the water? Have you ever poured something down the drain that you shouldn't have? Have you ever been in a head on auto accident? Do you use car washes? Do you fertilize your lawn? If you do laundry, I'm certain you are polluting.

"No-one has the right to pollute water"

 

[james t kirk]

You're the one who sounds like an NDP enviro Nazi - but at least the NDP'ers also focus on the industrial poluters and not just the little guy.

Your solution reveals that you have never had to get around by bus, and a complete lack of first hand knowledge of the low income world.
Jobs in wareheousing, transportation and light manufacturing pay over 60% higher in Brampton and western Mississauga than they do in Toronto, or the more accessible Markham, Vaughn & Ajax. In Oakville, the hourly wages for labour can be twice as high.

Commuting to these places by transit requires paying cash up front for a all three of TTC, GO & Local transit. It can actually be more expensive than running an old, small economy car. Also, if people loose their job or hours, they can sell the car for emergency money - but they can't get a refund on prepaid tickets and passes they no longer need.

For some people without a car, not taking a better paying job is simply a matter of not having enough cash to pay all of the extra transit fares for 2 weeks before they get a paycheque at their new place. Not to mention that it effectively adds 3-4 hours a day of unpaid time away from home. Many areas are not serviced at all late at night or early mornings.

Simple solution.

Move closer to your job.

If you can afford to drive, you can afford to maintain your vehicle. No-one gets a free pass as far as I am concerned. One law for everyone. I don't care how little money you make.

I don't see industry as necessarily being the bad guy all the time.

I wish I had a dollar for everyone of my NDP bleeding heart friends who thinks that industry is somehow to blame for smog. They're the same individuals who get unscrupulous garages to forge their emissions tests, live in the inner city in old houses cause "it's cool" but can't be bothered to insulate their attics because they want to go to Thailand. They can't be bothered to install new windows, doors, or furnaces either because they want to go to Costa Ricca at Christmas time.

The hipocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me.

 

[james t kirk]

When you have your facts straight, come on back to reality. Rural Ontario does have to comply with emissions testing. "On January 1, 2001 the program expanded to Phase 2, urban centres from Peterborough to Windsor and the Niagara Region. On July 1, 2002 Drive Clean expanded to include the balance of the southern Ontario smog zone. In eastern Ontario, this included centres such as Ottawa, Kingston and Cornwall, and in southwestern Ontario, Chatham-Kent. The light-duty vehicle and non-diesel heavy-duty vehicle components of Drive Clean are being introduced in areas which have a history of poor air quality (smog), a population of 50,000 or more or are within the commuting zone of an urban area of 50,000 or more. Heavy-duty diesel vehicles are being tested province-wide because these vehicles travel throughout the province, including the Southern Ontario smog corridor." This includes Barrie, Orillia, and Washago at the north of Simcoe county.

As far as dumps go, you sound like you'd dump anywhere that suits you. Why has David Miller been called upon to clean up the streets of Toronto?

While Toronto might be the financial center of Canada, there is a lot more manufacturing done outside of Toronto, and if it wasn't for Ontario and Canada's natural resources, you wouldn't have a lifestyle. Ontario, not Toronto, accounts for 39% of the country’s population, 40% of Canadian employment and 42% of Canada's GDP, and Toronto is less than 25% of Ontario's population, or approx 8.3% of Canada. So where did you learn your math?

Can I ask if you've ever polluted the water? Have you ever poured something down the drain that you shouldn't have? Have you ever been in a head on auto accident? Do you use car washes? Do you fertilize your lawn? If you do laundry, I'm certain you are polluting.

"No-one has the right to pollute water"

I was wrong.

The GTA pays 24 Billion MORE in taxes than it ever gets back.
So says the Fraser Institute....

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...illion+more+in+taxes&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=7

And no, I have NEVER poured anything down the draing I shoud not have.

 

[pussylicker]

I was wrong.

And no, I have NEVER poured anything down the draing I shoud not have.

Are you passing the buck, and going to blame your wife, or are you telling the truth, because you never knew. NOT!!! Your laundry soaps until recently contained phosphates and phosphous which is bad for the lakes. Some still do, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Some shampoos and toothpaste have contained phosphates.

Propylene glycol is a poison, and has been and still is an ingredient in some soaps, and is also in antifreeze, which a teaspoon of the stuff can kill a dog.

Laureth sulfate is found in shampoos and toothpaste, and is a poison.

Flouride, mouthwash, chlorine, drain cleaners, oven cleaners, dish washer soap, bleach, liquid fabric softener, floor cleaners, all are poisonous, and end up going down the drain. There are other household products that may have gone down your drains, but again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.