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Feds have 7 days to remedy breach of Khadr's rights

seth gecko

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Nov 2, 2003
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Fuji, your above post contains some of the stupidest comments and concepts you've ever written....the comments are so dumb that they've actually sucked all the intelligence out of this entire thread. Anybody who reads your above post will end up being slightly dumber than when they started because of how misguided and oblivious the ideas therein are.
Normally, I'd encourage you to try again, but I'm truly worried what sort of lunacy would come up with this time.
But I like to try to help people, so I'll give you what you're looking for......Fuji, you win this "debate".
 

landscaper

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I agree to an extent--it should be updated to clarify that people fighting out of uniform are still entitled to full protection.



I have yet to see an example where that's true. There are lots of claims about this but I suspect corruption of those who make those claims--people don't want to follow the rules for the same reason people 100 years ago didn't want to follow the rules--because they think their cause is more important than the values encoded in the GC, that the ends justify the means, and so on. And they're wrong.



I agree.



I disagree. The Khadrs are also ineffective, as are most terrorists. I think the threat from terrorism is overblown this notion that our civilization will come to an end if we don't undermine every value we've ever fought for is wrong.

Traffic accidents kill more people. Terrorist acts are terrifying (they're meant to be) and they grab headlines but they are NOT all that effective, they do not do significant damage to our social structures, our governments, our institutions, or our population.

Yes we need to stop them, the same way we need to stop murderers, rapists, serial killers, and other scum of the earth. However civilization does not come to an end if the police fail to catch a couple of criminals, no matter how nasty they are, and that applies to terrorists like the Khadrs as well.

As for Khadr's rights they are pretty simple and not very new or different:

1. The right to a fair trial

2. The right to be treated as a child soldier, which he was

The first of those was as relevant when the Magna Carta was drafted as it is today. The 2nd is a 20th century conception but I think just as important.

These are not difficult things to do, and doing them would not undermine our society. In fact in the long run the way to win the war is to claim the moral high ground, undercutting support for your enemy in the long run. That may result in some short term setbacks but it is the only way to win in the end.

The nature of war has changed in one significant way in the last 100 years: 100 years ago another way to win was the complete annihilation of your enemy including all of their women and children, but we don't do that now. As a result winning in the modern world MEANS winning hearts and minds, and any killing done along the way must necessarily be a means to that end, and therefore restricted by that end. Eventually ALL modern conflicts are settled by negotiation and accommodation. Any other solution is a temporary measure inherently: since genocide is off the table the enemy is never truly eliminated.

To the extent that failing to abide the GC's undercuts trust and removes our claim to the moral high ground it undercuts the only viable long-run victory condition.

You will hate this Seth, but it's absolutely true: All modern wars are eventually won by civilians. In the modern world soldiers can win battles, but soldiers cannot win wars.

Don't believe me? Who won the war between the British and native North Americans? The correct answer is it isn't settled yet. Military victories inevitably give way to a resurgent enemy who puruses his same interest in new ways hundreds of years later until some lasting political solution is achieved.
The right to be treated as a child soldier, which he was?

Check section 38 i believe of the child soldier treaty as written. The age was enshrined as not having reached his 15th year. ie 14 years and younger, Kahdr was 15 when arrested
 

Captain Fantastic

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The right to be treated as a child soldier, which he was?

Check section 38 i believe of the child soldier treaty as written. The age was enshrined as not having reached his 15th year. ie 14 years and younger, Kahdr was 15 when arrested
While Khadr was detained at 15, he had been a "soldier" for some time before then - the evidence shows that. By my understanding of how every case involving child soldiers works it looks at when they were indoctrinated/conscripted/forced at gunpoint to join the military, not at the time of their exit from combat. As well, the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict, a United Nations measure ratified by the United States in 2002 that safeguards youths under 18 years old.

Furthermore, while international law does not prohibit the prosecution of children who commit war crimes, article 37 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child does limit the punishment that a child can receive including, "Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age." But no international criminal tribunal established under the laws of war, from Nuremberg forward, has ever prosecuted former child soldiers as war criminals.


Omar Khadr was a child taken to a conflict zone by his family where he was brainwashed (children are particularly vulnerable to recruitment by rebel and terrorist groups like Al Qaeda because they're more easily manipulated than adults.) On and after July 27, 2002 he has been mistreated while in U.S. detention; held without a proper trial, without any basic form of rights - Canadian, American or Afghani... without any resolution for 8 years. One-third of his life. And this is justice how?
 

Malibook

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While Khadr was detained at 15, he had been a "soldier" for some time before then - the evidence shows that. By my understanding of how every case involving child soldiers works it looks at when they were indoctrinated/conscripted/forced at gunpoint to join the military, not at the time of their exit from combat.
So you think that if Khadr started his terrorist career before turning 15, then he should be considered a child soldier until he retires?

That would be like treating crooks as young offenders because they started before they were 18.

I would think that the age at the time of the alleged crime is what matters.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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If bank robbers refuse orders to come out and surrender, murder 2 mediators that are sent in, and then decide to shoot it out with the cops and one of them gets in a lucky shot that kills a cop, does it really matter which one of them fired that particular shot?
Yes it does, if that's what your law says. But that issue is before the 'will they ever figure it out' special court/commission in the US. Maybe they'll decide it (and there's lotsa precedent for your view) before Khadr has spent more time in jail waiting for a trial than he ever did free. Only seven years to go.

Our Supreme Court dealt with a different issue, decided it and passed judgement; the government failed to meet the legal obligation the Court laid out. A federal court then declared the government could have another seven days to get itself legal, and instead of doing that the government used its week to decide to do what it could have the minute that decision was announced: appeal.

You can only pretend to be a law and order government if the courts consistently judge you to be breaking the law, and only your bumbuddies will buy the pretence. The thing about rights that makes them different from privileges is that everyone has rights—even the scumbags. The thing that distinguishes a democracy from a dictatorship, is that in the former, citizens have rights. in the latter any citizen has only what privilege the government deigns to allow, as the government's doing w/ Khadr.

One character trait of the criminal is that he only obeys the law and does the right thing out of fear of consequences. Clearly Harpo's taking his lead from Stalin's famous, "How many divisions does the Pope have?", and will do what he wants until the Supreme Court Police show up at 24 Sussex.
 
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Malibook

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Yes it does, if that's what your law says. But that issue is before the 'will they ever figure it out' special court/commission in the US. Maybe they'll decide it (and there's lotsa precedent for your view) before Khadr has spent more time in jail waiting for a trial than he ever did free. Only seven years to go.
Who is this addressed to and what are you talking about?
 

oldjones

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Who is this addressed to and what are you talking about?
I've always thought it a foolish waste of bandwidth to quote the post immediately above, but if it helps you track:

Q [from you]. "…does it really matter which one of them fired that particular shot? "

A [from me, new emphasis added] "Yes it does, if that's what your law says.…"

The topic being what our courts said about our laws, and your point being what a US court has yet to say about—well the law part's a jumble of Geneve and Hague and UN Conventions, US law, international law, rules and practices of war, etc. who can say, but they ain't our laws—someone else's law. Fun but pointless to argue over. And as I said, depending on the law, you may be right about your bank robber.

What Khadr's guilty of under someone else's law is irrelevant and immaterial to what rights he has as a human being and a citizen. You might check out on this Bastille Day, OTB's posting of the Declaration of Independence, as fine a statement as ever made: "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalenable rights… (from memory, how'd I do?) and going on to list innumerable instances of the Crown's refusal to rule by law. The sin of failing to establish courts and appoint judges seems relevant to the Khadr case, but again OT.

So far Harpo's trying to duck the reality of 'inalienable rights' by committing the same sorts of sins as GeorgeIII. But he was mad wasn't he?
 

Malibook

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So far Harpo's trying to duck the reality of 'inalienable rights' by committing the same sorts of sins as GeorgeIII. But he was mad wasn't he?
Canadians are subject to the laws of the land where it is alleged that they committed an offence.
In Khadr's case, he is probably much better off not having to face Afghan justice.

If the American Speer was not killed, Khadr may have been prosecuted for the murder of the 2 Afghan interpreters.
Perhaps he will be made to face the music over there when the US is finished with him.

As far as the Canadian government coming to the aid of persecuted Canadians in other countries goes, I am all for this in some cases but why the fuck is there so much focus on Omar Khadr?
Why do so many people go after the US any chance they get but they say fuck all about countries that are far worse?

Chretien did nothing for Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi who was arrested for taking pictures, tortured, raped, and murdered in Iran and people would rather be outraged at Harper for not rescuing terrorist Omar Khadr.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/

Khadr was arrested when Chretien was the PM.
He was held for a few years while Martin was the PM.
Yet somehow it is Harper who deserves all the crap over this POS Khadr?

I think this is just another example of the biased anti-Republican and anti-Conservative movement.
Why the fuck is there no outrage directed at Obama for fuck's sake?
Didn't he promise to close Gitmo?
 

diehard

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Khadr was arrested when Chretien was the PM.
He was held for a few years while Martin was the PM.
Yet somehow it is Harper who deserves all the crap over this POS Khadr?

I think this is just another example of the biased anti-Republican and anti-Conservative movement.
Why the fuck is there no outrage directed at Obama for fuck's sake?
Didn't he promise to close Gitmo?
We're outraged at them all! :D
 

fuji

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I gather Seth hates it when his narrow minded world view is challenged, but it remains a fact:

Lasting peace is always achieved by people in suits, and always delayed if atrocities are committed by soldiers.
 

fuji

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So it's not clear that Khadr killed Dr. Speer, by tossing the grenade.
Correct, it's not clear, and it will probably never be clear because it will never be looked at by a competent court capable of assessing that in a fair manner.
 

flubadub

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Lasting peace is always achieved by people in suits, and always delayed if atrocities are committed by soldiers.
Hey Fuji, why does this apply to Khadr and not Palestine?
Why are you ignoring it in other posts?
 
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