Fighter Aircraft Tactics Question

[Keebler Elf]

I was watching Battle of Britain this weekend and it reminded me of a question I've been pondering for a while now.

What is the tactical advantage of having a wingman following on the heels of leadman? Wouldn't an enemy fighter just slip in behind the wingman instead of the leader? How is that any better?

I realize if an enemy fighter gets behind the wingman, the leader can then move around behind the enemy fighter but what if the enemy outnumbers them?

Any aircraft tacticians out there?

 

[Esco!]

Wait let me ask Maverick:

Iceman: You two really are cowboys.
Maverick: What's your problem, Kazanski?
Iceman: You're everyone's problem. That's because everytime you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
Maverick: That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous.

Charlie: Excuse me, Lieutenant. Is there something wrong?
Maverick: Yes ma'am, the data on the MiG is inaccurate.
Charlie: How's that, Lieutenant?
Maverick: Well, I just happened to see a MiG 28 do a...
Goose: We!
Maverick: Uh, sorry Goose. WE happened to see a MiG 28 do a 4g negative dive.
Charlie: Where did you see this?
Maverick: Uh, that's classified.
Charlie: It's what?
Maverick: It's classified. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Maverick: Requesting permission for flyby.
Air Boss Johnson: That's a negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Viper: Good morning, gentlemen, the temperature is 110 degrees.
Wolfman: Holy shit, it's Viper!
Lieutenant Nick "Goose" Bradshaw: Viper's up here, great... oh shit...
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: Great, he's probably saying, "Holy shit, it's Maverick and Goose."
Goose: Yeah, I'm sure he's saying that.

turns to Maverick
Maverick: Yes sir.
Viper: That's pretty arrogant considering the company here, don't you think?
Maverick: Yes sir.
Viper: I like that in a pilot.

Discussing Maverick.
Viper: Let me ask you something, if you had to go into battle, would you want him on your side?
Jester: I don't know, I just don't know

Goose's wife: Hey Goose you big stud!
Goose: That's me, honey.
Goose's wife: Take me to bed or lose me forever.
Goose: Show me the way home, honey.

Slider: Goose who's butt did you kiss to get in here anyway?
Goose: The list is long, but distinguished.
Slider: Yeah, well so is my Johnson.

Goose: The defense department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.

Iceman: The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies room.

Maverick: I think I'll go make a fool of myself with Goose.

Hondo: Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash.

Maverick: This is what I call a target rich environment.
Goose: You live your life between your legs Mav.
Maverick: Goose, even you could get laid in a place like this.
Goose: Hell, I'd be happy to just find a girl that would talk dirty to me.

Maverick: She's lost that loving feeling.
Goose: No, no she hasn't.
Maverick: Oh, yes she has.
Goose: I hate it when she does that.

Maverick: I feel the need...
Maverick, Goose: ...the need for speed!

Maverick: You don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead.

Hondo: And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!
Maverick: Yes sir!

Iceman: You can be my wingman any time.
Maverick: Bullshit! You can be mine.

Hondo: They gave you your choice of duty son, anything, anywhere. Do you believe that shit? Where do you think you wanna go?
Maverick: I thought of being an instructor, sir.
Hondo: Top Gun?
Maverick: Yes, sir.
Hondo: God help us.

Mike "Viper" Metcalf: Now I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your ass, Lieutenant.

Goose: We regret to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.

Charlie: What do you wanna do? Just drop down on the tile and go for it?
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: No, actually I had this counter in mind.
Charlie: Great, that would be very, very comfortable, yeah.
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: It could be.

Goose: No. No, Mav, this is not a good idea.
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz a tower.

Mike "Viper" Metcalf: Top Gun rules of engagement are written for your safety and for that of your team. They are not flexible, nor am I. Is that clear?

Goose: Come on, Mav, do some of that pilot shit!

Lieutenant Pete "Maverick" Mitchell: Too close for missles, I'm switching to guns.

 

[KBear]

Why have a fair fight, 1 vs 1, when you can have a safe kill with 2 vs 1.

The plane being perused would have a hard time getting in behind both planes that are following him.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Yeah, I understand the whole extra set of eyes thing. But is that it? You don't need someone sticking on your tail to provide a heads-up on approaching enemy fighters. In fact, being in a different position can provide a much better view of enemy fighters moving in behind the leader.

The only thing I can think of is that sticking together allows the leader to move around behind an enemy fighter that moves in behind the wingman. But that goes out the window if the enemy fighter has a wingman (or wingmen) of his own...

 

[KBear]

But that goes out the window if the enemy fighter has a wingman (or wingmen) of his own...

You just answered your own question.

 

[Esco!]

Keebler, the whole idea of wingmen and dogfights is gonna be passez soon cause they're coming out with remote controllled jet aircrafts soon.

I saw this on the Discovery channel, they can fly these fricking things at Mach 3 and drop bombs from a video controlled computer at thousands of miles away.

The way of the future is a massive world war of Nintendo kids!!!

 

[xarir]

Keebler, the whole idea of wingmen and dogfights is gonna be passez soon ...

Maybe. Or maybe not. It depends on whether or not set-piece combat will still exist. Current thinking is that if you control the skies above, you can (more easily) control the ground below. Logically this makes sense - if you just send in the ground troops without adequate air support, the enemy can in theory bomb your troops from the air and blow all their artillery and tanks to crap thus negating your forces.

But this presumes that massive ground forces with artillery & tanks are actually the proper way to fight a ground war. In the case of Vietnam and arguably Afghanistan & Iraq, massive ground forces have not had the same overall effect that they did in say, WWII Europe. Of course, in WWII Europe the objective was very defined - drive the Nazis out. In the cases of Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq there was no way to really drive the "enemy" out as the enemy was already at home.

So on the whole, the future role of air combat will ultimately depend on the nature of the war being fought.

 

[Esco!]

Maybe. Or maybe not. It depends on whether or not set-piece combat will still exist. Current thinking is that if you control the skies above, you can (more easily) control the ground below. Logically this makes sense - if you just send in the ground troops without adequate air support, the enemy can in theory bomb your troops from the air and blow all their artillery and tanks to crap thus negating your forces.

But this presumes that massive ground forces with artillery & tanks are actually the proper way to fight a ground war. In the case of Vietnam and arguably Afghanistan & Iraq, massive ground forces have not had the same overall effect that they did in say, WWII Europe. Of course, in WWII Europe the objective was very defined - drive the Nazis out. In the cases of Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq there was no way to really drive the "enemy" out as the enemy was already at home.

So on the whole, the future role of air combat will ultimately depend on the nature of the war being fought.

Xarir, you're next drink is on me!!

 

[maverick]

Wait let me ask Maverick:

Iceman: You two really are cowboys.
Maverick: What's your problem, Kazanski?
Iceman: You're everyone's problem. That's because everytime you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
Maverick: That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous.
...

yeah... i am pretty cool ain't i???

 

[Esco!]

yeah... i am pretty cool ain't i???

LOL.....damn....you are pretty damn fricking cool, dammit!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Esco!]

yeah... i am pretty cool ain't i???

Whats your problem Kasanzki??????????????????????

 

[red]

The wingman should stay to the left and be ready to swoop in and pick up the target's fat friend, so you are free to get in the target's panties. doesn't anyone have combat experience on this board?

 

[Jamaica-luvr]

Wait let me ask Maverick:

Iceman: You two really are cowboys.
Maverick: What's your problem, Kazanski?
Iceman: You're everyone's problem. That's because everytime you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
Maverick: That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous.

Charlie: Excuse me, Lieutenant. Is there something wrong?
Maverick: Yes ma'am, the data on the MiG is inaccurate.
Charlie: How's that, Lieutenant?
Maverick: Well, I just happened to see a MiG 28 do a...
Goose: We!
Maverick: Uh, sorry Goose. WE happened to see a MiG 28 do a 4g negative dive.
Charlie: Where did you see this?
Maverick: Uh, that's classified.
Charlie: It's what?
Maverick: It's classified. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Maverick: Requesting permission for flyby.
Air Boss Johnson: That's a negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Viper: Good morning, gentlemen, the temperature is 110 degrees.
Wolfman: Holy shit, it's Viper!
Lieutenant Nick "Goose" Bradshaw: Viper's up here, great... oh shit...
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: Great, he's probably saying, "Holy shit, it's Maverick and Goose."
Goose: Yeah, I'm sure he's saying that.

turns to Maverick
Maverick: Yes sir.
Viper: That's pretty arrogant considering the company here, don't you think?
Maverick: Yes sir.
Viper: I like that in a pilot.

Discussing Maverick.
Viper: Let me ask you something, if you had to go into battle, would you want him on your side?
Jester: I don't know, I just don't know

Goose's wife: Hey Goose you big stud!
Goose: That's me, honey.
Goose's wife: Take me to bed or lose me forever.
Goose: Show me the way home, honey.

Slider: Goose who's butt did you kiss to get in here anyway?
Goose: The list is long, but distinguished.
Slider: Yeah, well so is my Johnson.

Goose: The defense department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.

Iceman: The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies room.

Maverick: I think I'll go make a fool of myself with Goose.

Hondo: Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash.

Maverick: This is what I call a target rich environment.
Goose: You live your life between your legs Mav.
Maverick: Goose, even you could get laid in a place like this.
Goose: Hell, I'd be happy to just find a girl that would talk dirty to me.

Maverick: She's lost that loving feeling.
Goose: No, no she hasn't.
Maverick: Oh, yes she has.
Goose: I hate it when she does that.

Maverick: I feel the need...
Maverick, Goose: ...the need for speed!

Maverick: You don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead.

Hondo: And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!
Maverick: Yes sir!

Iceman: You can be my wingman any time.
Maverick: Bullshit! You can be mine.

Hondo: They gave you your choice of duty son, anything, anywhere. Do you believe that shit? Where do you think you wanna go?
Maverick: I thought of being an instructor, sir.
Hondo: Top Gun?
Maverick: Yes, sir.
Hondo: God help us.

Mike "Viper" Metcalf: Now I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your ass, Lieutenant.

Goose: We regret to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.

Charlie: What do you wanna do? Just drop down on the tile and go for it?
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: No, actually I had this counter in mind.
Charlie: Great, that would be very, very comfortable, yeah.
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: It could be.

Goose: No. No, Mav, this is not a good idea.
Lt. Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell: Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz a tower.

Mike "Viper" Metcalf: Top Gun rules of engagement are written for your safety and for that of your team. They are not flexible, nor am I. Is that clear?

Goose: Come on, Mav, do some of that pilot shit!

Lieutenant Pete "Maverick" Mitchell: Too close for missles, I'm switching to guns.

You, my friend, have wwwaaaaayyyyy too much time on your hands...heheheheh

 

[mandrill]

There were also "set plays" that WW2 pilots developed to utilize the wingman or 4-plane "finger four" formations. They consisted of the planes turning and breaking in various pre-determined angles and flying certain patterns so as to box in any enemy planes trying to jump the leader. If executed right, these plays would lead to a high probability kill opportunity for 1 or more of the participants. These plays were particularly important in the Pacific where the Japanese flew more maneuvreable aircraft, but eschewed tight disciplined formation flying. US pilots flying solid, but clunky aircraft would thus be able to out-dogfight their more nimble opponents.

 

[Esco!]

You, my friend, have wwwaaaaayyyyy too much time on your hands...heheheheh

LOl.....you know it!!

 

[Mack Bolan]

Formation flying is not easy. You have to keep a "combat" spread while watching your sky and keeping a eye on your flight leader or wingman.

If I remember correctly, during the Battle of Britian, the English pilots went up a flight of 3 aircraft and then soon changed to the German formation of 4 aircraft (finger formation). As been stated earlier, the leader of each is the lead on a target and the 2 guy is there to protect is rear. When flying an air intercept mission the leader will try to attack the tail-end charlie of the enemy flight. Modern Air Combat rules and tacts haven't changed since WW1. The German Air Force developed the "hand book" on fighting. Attack from out of sun, approach from above and attack from the rear.

As the weapon's platforms improve, the distance you've kept from your wingman had increased. For example it takes a lot of 30cal bullets to shot down a Me-109; few 20mm shells to take down a Spitfire MK1 - 3.

Durning the Korean war, the American jet were armed with 6 - 8 50cal and the MIGs were armed with 13mm and a 75mm cannon. The 13mm were slower firing than the 50cals, but they had twice the punch and distance.

Now imagine that since the NORAD fighter have been armed with nukes to be used against the Russian bomber formations.

The only limit on moden and future fighter craft, is that the pilot is the weak link. I've seen where they are using Gell in the Jeus hats and you might see that the pilot will be laying in gel to take the pressures.

Regards

Mack