Finally Congress Does Something

[onthebottom]

Unfortunately it's a non-binding blunder.....


Turkey slams US house panel over “genocide” bill
Thursday, October 11, 2007

ANKARA – Turkish Daily News

In a midnight statement to semi-official Anatolia news agency President Abdullah Gül denounced as “unacceptable” the endorsement of a measure branding as “genocide” the alleged Ottoman massacres of Armenians by a key U.S. House panel.

“This unacceptable decision of the committee... has no validity and respectability for the Turkish people. Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States ignored appeals for common sense and once again moved to sacrifice big issues to petty games of domestic politics," Gül said.

A group of protestors marched to U.S. Embassy in Ankara to protest the development.

In Washington President George W. Bush said at the White House shortly before the committee voted on the bill that "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror.” The non-binding measure, which passed the Democratic-led House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21, will now be sent on to the full House for a possible vote.

Turkey denies the killings were genocide. It argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia during World War I and sided with Russian troops invading the crumbling Ottoman Empire.



OTB

 

[TOVisitor]

Unfortunately it's a non-binding blunder.....


Turkey slams US house panel over “genocide” bill
Thursday, October 11, 2007

ANKARA – Turkish Daily News

In a midnight statement to semi-official Anatolia news agency President Abdullah Gül denounced as “unacceptable” the endorsement of a measure branding as “genocide” the alleged Ottoman massacres of Armenians by a key U.S. House panel.

“This unacceptable decision of the committee... has no validity and respectability for the Turkish people. Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States ignored appeals for common sense and once again moved to sacrifice big issues to petty games of domestic politics," Gül said.

A group of protestors marched to U.S. Embassy in Ankara to protest the development.

In Washington President George W. Bush said at the White House shortly before the committee voted on the bill that "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror.” The non-binding measure, which passed the Democratic-led House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21, will now be sent on to the full House for a possible vote.

Turkey denies the killings were genocide. It argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia during World War I and sided with Russian troops invading the crumbling Ottoman Empire.



OTB

the Democratic-led House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21

So who voted against, BOT? Shall I give you one guess?

 

[frasier]

Unfortunately it's a non-binding blunder.....


Turkey slams US house panel over “genocide” bill
Thursday, October 11, 2007

ANKARA – Turkish Daily News

In a midnight statement to semi-official Anatolia news agency President Abdullah Gül denounced as “unacceptable” the endorsement of a measure branding as “genocide” the alleged Ottoman massacres of Armenians by a key U.S. House panel.

“This unacceptable decision of the committee... has no validity and respectability for the Turkish people. Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States ignored appeals for common sense and once again moved to sacrifice big issues to petty games of domestic politics," Gül said.

A group of protestors marched to U.S. Embassy in Ankara to protest the development.

In Washington President George W. Bush said at the White House shortly before the committee voted on the bill that "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror.” The non-binding measure, which passed the Democratic-led House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21, will now be sent on to the full House for a possible vote.

Turkey denies the killings were genocide. It argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia during World War I and sided with Russian troops invading the crumbling Ottoman Empire.



OTB

Now that we resolved other useless issues..like "what type of jet Pelosi should fly" or who had sex with who in the bathroom...this actually looks like a worthwhile issue..but alas in typical liberal fashion....let's make it non binding..

Certainly more productive than this...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6274.html

 

[K Douglas]

What purpose does it serve the US people that their Congressmen are voting on something that happened almost 100 years ago and has no bearing on current day life in the US.
All this vote did is create antogonism with a key US ally in Iraq.

 

[basketcase]

This really is a no brainer on par with the US government recognizing the Holocaust. There is more than enough evidence to show a genocide occured. If it wasn't for politics, that would be end of the story. I think that the only reason that this never reached the level of public knowledge was because the results were pretty much only seen by other Turks as opposed to being witnessed by the armed forces of most of WWII's participants.

Because of Turkey's location and culture being a blend of European and Middle Eastern (and essentially Islamic religiously), they have been a good place to keep relations with. I wonder if any of this has to do with the recent Turkish elections which might indicate a divergence with the secular ideals of the Young Turks. Perhaps some in the US no longer see the connection as important.

 

[onthebottom]

This really is a no brainer on par with the US government recognizing the Holocaust. There is more than enough evidence to show a genocide occured. If it wasn't for politics, that would be end of the story. I think that the only reason that this never reached the level of public knowledge was because the results were pretty much only seen by other Turks as opposed to being witnessed by the armed forces of most of WWII's participants.

Because of Turkey's location and culture being a blend of European and Middle Eastern (and essentially Islamic religiously), they have been a good place to keep relations with. I wonder if any of this has to do with the recent Turkish elections which might indicate a divergence with the secular ideals of the Young Turks. Perhaps some in the US no longer see the connection as important.

Looks like the Current:

Bush reels as Armenian genocide vote passed


Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Wednesday October 10, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

Congress today rejected a plea by the White House over a resolution officially recognising as genocide the forced deportation and massacre of Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman empire.

President George Bush warned of the negative repercussions should Congress use the word genocide to describe the persecution that killed an estimated 1.5 million Armenians and forced many into exile.

"This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in Nato and in the global war on terror," Mr Bush said.

And Former POTUS Agree:

US backs down over Turkey 'genocide'

Friday, 20 October, 2000,

The American House of Representatives has agreed to a request from President Clinton to withdraw a draft resolution which labelled as genocide the killing of Armenians by Turks more than 80 years ago.

Every patriotic American should heed the president's request

Mr Clinton had said passing the resolution could put at risk American lives and further inflame tensions in the Middle East.

The draft had urged the president to show "appropriate understanding and sensitivity" toward events in the Ottoman Empire eight decades ago.

It described the "the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1.5 million Armenians" as genocide.

According to resolution sponsors, another 500,000 Armenians were driven from their homes.

But Turkey has always said that events in the northeast of the country between 1915 and 1923 cannot be described as genocide.

It says both sides suffered during partisan fighting as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Fierce opposition

Such was the concern in the White House - not only about the diplomatic repercussions with Ankara, but the possible impact across the Middle East - that President Clinton personally intervened.

Genocide survivors
Survivors commemorate the 85th anniversary in New York this year
He telephoned the Republican House speaker, Dennis Hastert, who agreed to cancel the vote.

The Turkish Government, a key Nato military ally of the United States, has been fiercely opposed to the resolution, threatening retaliation if it was passed.

Washington was warned that US military aircraft using Turkey's Incirlik air base to patrol the no-fly zone in northern Iraq would be grounded.

There were also fears that Turkey might withdraw from a possible $4.5bn defence deal with an American contractor.

The BBC's Nick Bryant in Washington says Republican leaders in Congress had been under fierce pressure from members, whose home districts harbour large Armenian constituencies.

House speaker Hastert said that although he personally supported the resolution, he believed that the president's request should be heeded.

"The Congress, while it has a right to express its opinions on critical issues of the day, also must be cognizant of the consequences of the expression of those opinions," he said.



OTB

The French National Assembly recognised the genocide on 29 May, although the French Government did not endorse the move.

Turkey warned of dire consequences, but the issue blew over.

 

[Asterix]

When it's over and done with, of course.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

So what's the deal with these non binding agreements? Is 10 non binding agreements equal to one binding agreement? If you pass through 10, you get a binding agreement of your choice?

If it's not binding, what the hell is the point? If it's only lip service, open up a blog for God's sake.

 

[Asterix]

Well, it certainly caught Turkey's attention since they've now withdrawn their ambassador to the US. Seems the best way to piss off a Turk is to mention Armenia. You do have to marvel at the tenacity with which they hold onto their denial.

 

[Aardvark154]

K Douglas and others are correct about this vote.

There is, however, no doubt, among anyone with decent historical training in the period, except among Turkish nationalists, about the reality of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1917.

Is this, however, a wise time for the U.S. Congress to pass this resolution, I don't believe so. That said the President should certainly instruct the U.S. Ambassador to Turkey to make it plain that the U.S. Government knows that this is the truth, passage of a resolution or without passage of a resolution.

It is unfortunate that Realpolitik has and must of necessity play a role in the world. First western exhaustion and apathy following the First World War, then the critical position played by Turkey in countering the great threat posed by the U.S.S.R. during the Cold War, and now the vital role played by Turkey in the Near East, and as an air bridge to Iraq have all served to shield it from coming to terms with the dying days of the Ottoman Empire.

Hopefully both Canada and the U.S.A. are unlike Adolf Hitler, who in August 1939 infamously said "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

 

[Asterix]

Is Rwonda continuing?

No, I meant really over and done with. You know, as in decades ago.

 

[Asterix]

They may have a point. Without setting off a
flameout did they really commit genocide or was
it a very bloody series of battles?

You wouldn't be trying to wave a red flag in front of a particular board member by any chance, would you?

 

[onthebottom]

You wouldn't be trying to wave a red flag in front of a particular board member by any chance, would you?

Wouldn't it really be more useful to have the stones to confront a genocide while it is occurring (Sudan, and a missed opportunity in Rwanda) then to placate a domestic audience with a non-binding resolution.

After all, who is alive now in Turkey to punish..... collective punishment by Congress seems a little to little a lot to late.

OTB

 

[Asterix]

Wouldn't it really be more useful to have the stones to confront a genocide while it is occurring (Sudan, and a missed opportunity in Rwanda) then to placate a domestic audience with a non-binding resolution.

Preachin' to the choir, OTB, although it also seems pretty clear that Turkey doesn't have the stones to deal with their past.

 

[onthebottom]

Preachin' to the choir, OTB, although it also seems pretty clear that Turkey doesn't have the stones to deal with their past.

Yeah I get that, but is there anyone alive who took part, if not what's the point of dwelling on it. I don't think the Japanese teach their children about Nanking either, do you suppose we'll get a non-binding blunder on that as well.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

We do the same with Indians and slavery, et al.
Now we're into it with the Mexicans. Canada,
watch your tail.

Every society has fault lines, echoes of historical
indifference and much worse. No society is immune.

Yes, but what is the value of Congress wagging a non-binding finger at a country after all the guilty are dead..... I think this is one of the things about the US that pisses everyone off, we feel we have to comment on everything. Perhaps a little less talk and a lot more action (Sudan) would be better.

OTB

 

[Asterix]

Yes, but what is the value of Congress wagging a non-binding finger at a country after all the guilty are dead..... I think this is one of the things about the US that pisses everyone off, we feel we have to comment on everything. Perhaps a little less talk and a lot more action (Sudan) would be better.

OTB

That would require actually doing something. The resolution is pretty much meaningless, but what I find more interesting is how strongly Turkey has reacted to it. You point out that no one is alive who has any direct memory of the events, and yet there are people in the streets protesting against it's recognition. Obviously the issue of what happened and who was responsible is very much alive in the Turkish psyche.

 

[onthebottom]

That would require actually doing something. The resolution is pretty much meaningless, but what I find more interesting is how strongly Turkey has reacted to it. You point out that no one is alive who has any direct memory of the events, and yet there are people in the streets protesting against it's recognition. Obviously the issue of what happened and who was responsible is very much alive in the Turkish psyche.

Yes, we wouldn't actually want to do something in this century...... that might be politically risky.

OTB

 

[themexi]

What purpose does it serve the US people that their Congressmen are voting on something that happened almost 100 years ago and has no bearing on current day life in the US.
All this vote did is create antogonism with a key US ally in Iraq.

I guess the same reasons that there are still halocaust museums & movies... people feel the need to have such a horrible thing always remembered in the hopes that it might prevent it from happening again. It is a noble desire.

Thankfully, other groups that suffered similar atrocities are finally being given the voice thet any victim of such things should have. No one person/people should have a monopoly on sympathy, as almost every people has had great wrongs perpetrated upon them at one time or another. We should all recognize that such horrors have happened & can happen to anyone, so that we can work together to possibly prevent more of the same

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Here's a funny take on the issue:

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=111484