The question remains, why do democraticly elected governments in Canada continue to have major public services such as garbage collection and many others done in the public sector by unionized workers? I guess you need to accept that this is what Canadians, Ontarians, Torontonians actually want. Do you suggest deciding this question in some other way than democracy? Then I guess you and all the other knuckle draggers from the 19th century lose.
Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break
- Thread starter Thunderballs
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You give yourself away by your comment. That democracy and unions are tied together. They are not. Here is a nice "obituary" from Spiegel:Mrbig1949 said:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,445043,00.html
Death of Unions
The following is an obituary.
The death, though, was never publicly announced -- and the tragedy is compounded by the fact that the closest relatives are keeping it a secret. But that does not alter the truth: Trade unions, as we knew them, are dead. The protector of the underdog is no more. What passes for a union today does not have the power to provide shelter.
In fact, even the estate executors need protection. Unions once saw themselves as a buffer against the whims of the executives. They made sure that wages were fair. They also functioned as the political voice of society. Today, such unions are a thing of the past.
The development of a global job market, the appearance of 1.2 billion new workers and the readiness of millions more to work at any cost has robbed the job brokers of their once-powerful position.
For decades, they had access to unparalleled treasures: The well-educated industrial worker was irreplaceable; the industrial robot was not yet intelligent enough; and the masses of today's competitive jobseekers were trapped behind walls and barbed wire, and sometimes simply hidden in the morass of Asian slums. These people were denied participation in Western job markets, a state of affairs which kept the price of Western labor high.
It was child's play for union negotiators to force employers to pay higher wages. The factory owner had no choice but to buy labor from the unions, because while there was a national and -- in the best case -- still a Western job market, there was no global job market that could provide the industrial skills necessary. Workers were scarce after both World Wars, and unions had a virtual monopoly on the commodity. They milked it for all it was worth.
Because said Unions, actively support political parties, both with money and public support.. I may also add it is not uncommon for such support to be given without first supporting their own membership first.Mrbig1949 said:
As for what the people of Toronto want , ask etobicoke , they seem quite happy with their private service, And yet Miller tries to get out of that contract.
As for the rest of the city, who knows, they (politicians) have never actually asked us.
Well I dont post quite often but here goes, I hope they stay on strike these are lazy ass people. there is a ressioson going on and these people are knobs I hope they lose there houses like I did.Get real and a life.
Quality???Mrbig1949 said:
You must think the readers here are pretty slow to try & sell them on quality.
I honestly can not recall how many times I have discussed the issue of the quality of garbage collection.
Let me think for a second...... OK. NEVER
Its picking up trash can and emptying them into a truck for Christ Sakes!!!
We are not taking about hand crafted furniture or micro-surgery.
The trash is either removed or it is not.
Its just like the quality of turning on the tap, water comes out or it does not
The reason why there is no private sector collection is all political
Seems to me the green eyed monster of envy has caught a lots of you guys, "If I can't have it, nobody should have it." You are pathetic. "I lost my house so they should lose there houses." The middle class was created by unions and everybody knows it except a group of neanderthals on TERB.
"I was reading recently" is hardly a reputable source. If you're going to insult someone's factual knowledge someone, you owe them and your audience a reference. Elementary etiquette, never mind being more persuasive than "I was reading recently…and I forget the third place".someone said:Do you just make these things up or do you really believe them?I was reading recently that there are only three municipalities in Ontario where garbage is not contracted out (Toronto, Windsor and I forget the third place).
Or do you just make these things up?
I take it you were born knowing how to drive and operate a compactor truck then? Lucky you, but I don't think we can assume anyone who shows up was so fortunate and just send them out—can they read a map?—to do a route and keep the taxpaers from bothering their Councillor.JohnLarue said:
My experience has been that those who undervalue the work of others often don't give good value themselves, and that it's better not to mouth off about how easy and worthless other people's work looks.
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Mrbig1949 said:
no but they should go with the times and just understand that there are others in this world who would kill to have a job.
/
That point is not relevant and in the case I am thinking of I can not state with 100% certainty it was.
2. What is relevant was that the management was open and honest with the union about the consequences of the unions demands,their negotiating position and management tried to save the jobs
3. Opening the books to the unions???
Some companies (publicly traded) may not have an issue, however
a) It implies right off the bat the unions lack of trust, not a good starting point for negotiating & certainly not the foundation for a partnership
b) its insulting
c) it also opens the door for unions to start dictating how the company is run
ie. suggesting cutting back on promotional expenses or management salaries in order to meet certain union demands
Then who is really running the company?
No that is a non-starter for many smaller privately owned companies.
4. The real issue here was the management was honest & open telling the union what was going to happen if they stuck to their demands & it played out exactly as described.
I do not blame the unions for what happened to this company, I do blame them for losing their own jobs.
Its was time to wake up to reality
This scenario has been repeated many times
1. I did not explicitly state the companies woes were all down to the union.oldjones said:
That point is not relevant and in the case I am thinking of I can not state with 100% certainty it was.
2. What is relevant was that the management was open and honest with the union about the consequences of the unions demands,their negotiating position and management tried to save the jobs
3. Opening the books to the unions???
Some companies (publicly traded) may not have an issue, however
a) It implies right off the bat the unions lack of trust, not a good starting point for negotiating & certainly not the foundation for a partnership
b) its insulting
c) it also opens the door for unions to start dictating how the company is run
ie. suggesting cutting back on promotional expenses or management salaries in order to meet certain union demands
Then who is really running the company?
No that is a non-starter for many smaller privately owned companies.
4. The real issue here was the management was honest & open telling the union what was going to happen if they stuck to their demands & it played out exactly as described.
I do not blame the unions for what happened to this company, I do blame them for losing their own jobs.
Its was time to wake up to reality
This scenario has been repeated many times
/
Doctor, garbageman Lawyer, Firefighter, Policeman...... Nobody should take the taxpayer for that much of a free ride
Its just not right
OK even if picking up trash is a highly skilled job (not the case) and even if this particular group was impossible to replace (not the case), nobody & I mean nobody deserves to bank 20 plus sick days a year when I am paying for it with my property taxes or rentoldjones said:
Doctor, garbageman Lawyer, Firefighter, Policeman...... Nobody should take the taxpayer for that much of a free ride
Its just not right
The fact is that some of us have work to do and looking up sources for the benefit of idiots is not a priority. However, in your case I will make an exception:oldjones said:
“He notes that, among Ontario cities, only Oshawa, Toronto and Windsor have city employees picking up the trash.” http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog....e-a-good-week-to-be-in-etobicoke&s=Canada&p=2
It is not the source I was reading but who cares.
For your benefit, I will also provide you with the following link so you can do future searches yourself:
http://www.google.ca/
It is a rather handy tool and saves you from pestering other people.
If I could you seriously, I might care about your opinion but I don’t. I have pointed out several times in this thread that MrBigs posts are full of shit. I have been polite enough not do so with you, but perhaps I will rethink the policy.oldjones said:
So you blew a tire big time on the claim that most municipalities in the GTA, 905, then Ontario have public pick up, so you invoke the national theme. I know of 441 democratically elected government which didn't . Where do you pull these statements out of? Are you just flapping your gums. The more you try the deeper you get.Mrbig1949 said:
We have a public service to do work for us all. It's just that garbage doesn't have to be one of them and the general public/municipal councils are realizing it. The union movement also knows it but are pulling moves like they have in Windsor and TO and it just makes more and of the general public see the light. We tend to have a socialist style of government. That usually calls for a large size public service to do the government/legal/service work and that what we pay our taxes towards. Again, garbage doesn't appear to be one of those tasks that are done well by public works.
Because we lean towards the socialized style of government we don't have a lot of pay-for-use services like in the US. You pay for almost everything. They vote for almost every position in the public service; even dog catcher.
Well the sky fell, I agree, although it has nothing to do with self-serving stuff like I'm a taxpayer and they're hosing me.JohnLarue said:
Banked sickdays was a stupid idea of bad managers who couldn't come up with a better scheme to treat sick employees fairly. Quite trendy a few years ago, managers failed to realize they'd eventually have big bills to pay when those workers retired and collected for vthe days they hadn't booked off. In Toronto, management's currently describing it as an 'unfunded liability' meaning that, like a GM pension, they promised to pay it, but thought they could get away without ever putting aside the cash to do so.
Competent, honest administrators would have banked money to equal the days—only grade school arithmetic required—then told the union they'd pay out what was owed, but end the practice from here forward. But like the GM managers, these guys made a promise they were too weak-willed to keep, never did bank the money, and asked the workers to just forget what they were owed. And—quelle surprise!—got a strike.
It's a good thing the management types are now doing the scut work, and I sure hope the weather warms aand the piles stink, because they're sure not competent at their own, and there are families who need that daycare. Those managers are the ones hosing the taxpayers, not the guys who emptied your trash cans in all weathers.
And as for sickdays, the secret is they'll always be a troublesome issue for management, and there will never be a magic bullet for absenteeism. Try this, try that, fix this, fix that, if it was easy we'd all be managers.
I think you've spend too much time standing near truck exhaust. There's no green-eyed monster in this story. I have garbage pick up. Who was it that told you that unions were created by the middle class? It's clear you are no student of history; just a conduit for union diatribe. You just spout forth the union message with no real understanding of what it is your saying.Mrbig1949 said:
Deeper and deeper you dig.
