The Porn Dude

Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,478
12
38
blackrock13 said:
Somebody tell me, is the contract still in force. If not, it's time to put out tenders. Let's see what kind of work can be offered for how much. then we can talk about worth.

Remember those numbers from way back, which MB had no clue of, only 3 out of 444 municipalities in Ontario have contracted out the garbage service. Something's not working right. Let's fix it.
You mean you've been going on all this time and only now are you bothering to find out the most basic fact of all? With that sort of wise citizenship contributing to the debate no wonder it's off the rails.

As the media, even on the right, made clear in the weeks before the strike, the contract was due to expire, and the union took a strike vote so that if bargaining which ahd been going on for months, did not produce a new agreement by then, they could walk out immediately. Last time, I'm sure you've forgotten, they continued to work and bargain—unsuccessfully—for months after the old agreement had expired.

It's just possible, though it deeply frightens me, that some of the thinking on the city's side of the table is as prejudiced and uninformed as you've shown yours to be. Certainly there's ample evidence you have company, and it's no mystery how that kind of thinking would lead to dealmaking that would get strike after strike after strike.
 

Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
32,771
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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it looks like the only two things we all agree on are:

1) The garbage strikers are overpaid for what they do.
2) The garbage strikers have a monopoly on garbage collection.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
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oldjones said:
I
You might want to re-check the solitary factoid in your post, about the tons of garbage: 14 tonsx365days in a year is only 5110 tons a year, not 12.5 million.
.
I knew the numbers didn't match up but just passed on what I read from a reasonably good source. The calculations are given on two differnt occasions are obviously based on different perimeters; including industrial waste or not. The fact is either figure is not a 'bit of trash'. The fact that your working with two bins, one compost heap, and meat and fishy bits shows that you're producing more than just on bag of garbage.

I'm not facinated with your PJs fashion statement, obsessed with NDP, nor did I didn't pull in The Stars reference willy-nilly (I did that on purpose), but I sure did hit a nerve somewhere.

During the week, I read most of the local newspapers, including The Sun, as part of my work. One a week, I grab any number of international papers from Britain, France, Australia and such. As needed I grab broadcasts from BBC, DW, ABC (Australia), and AJ in the middle east. It gives a broad base of views and a reasonable awareness of what a lot of people feel; and I get paid to do this. The internet makes that very possible.

I do find time to produce a product and get paid for it. People get paid for they know or what they can do; I can do both. It makes me more marketable. I do eat, sleep and put my pants one leg at a time, just like you. I just don't need a smoke break every 90 minutes, I eat when work allows me to, and stop work when my task allows me to.


My question about the contract expiration and the status of ongoing bargaining, assuming it's ongoing, was just that, a question; now I know and it was good to hear. Im not demanding the firing of all those strikers, like some in this BB, but I do believe the day of the unions playing the major role that they have is going bye-bye fast, in large part by their own actions and words. They just didn't know it, or do know and refuse to accept it.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,478
12
38
A pox on unreferenced, unexamined sources that make those who repeat them look bad.
There's nothing unusual about my garbage situation, I have the same bins everyone has, and frankly the only 'garbage' anyone should worry about is the green bin stuff, which should still be minimal even after two weeks. None of the other stuff rots or stinks. For any but the largest, slobbiest of households two weeks worth is still just a bit of garbage that needs getting rid of.
Glad to know more than I wanted about your work and habits, but I still urge you to inform yourself about situations you're going to comment heatedly about beforehand, check your 'facts' before they make you foolish, and stop worrying about people who refuse to accept reality. They'll find out soon enough. You, like all of us, just want your version of it to be respectable.

It carries way more weight that way.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
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oldjones said:
A pox on unreferenced, unexamined soiurces that make those who repeat them look stupid.
There's nothing unusual about my garbage situation, I have the same bins everyone has, and frankly the only 'garbage' anyone should worry about is the green bin stuff, which should still be minimal even after two weeks. None of the other stuff rots or stinks. For any but the largest, slobbiest of households two weeks worth is still just a bit of garbage that needs getting rid of.
Glad to know more than I wanted about your work and habits, but I still urge you to inform yourself about situations you're going to comment heatedly about beforehand, check your 'facts' before they make you foolish, and stop worrying about people who refuse to accept reality. They'll find out soon enough. You, like all of us, just want your version of it to be respectable.
\

The details of my work is more of an attempt to let you know I do more than slug back beers at the hall blow smoke rings in the air near the loading dock, and gorge on pizza and burger at least not at the same time( I realize that I might alienate a couple of you out there but no real slur intended, I'm just waxing poetic). My facts were sourced, albeit from the same source and not one of your liking.

As we know the bin program is a work in progress and I'm not sure if it's the best solution but the bins come in many different sizes, some big enough to sleep a family of four (relax, a joke), but my point was that your statement of you working on just one green bag was just wrong.

Let see if we bring this thread back to it's original point. Most of the people think this strike sucks big time, period. Polls, call-in shows and this BB prove it.
 

someone

Active member
Jun 7, 2003
4,308
1
38
Earth
oldjones said:
Or if you're truly serious about 'extortion' there's lots of pols who'd appreciate the help in defining an illegal union in a way that wouldn't accidentally capture a political party, a political action committee, the National Manufacturer's Council or the Taxpayer's Federation, never mind the Bar Association and the CMA. We could get back to the days when union membership was criminal conspiracy, just figure out the law.
You should be a bit more critical when you pick up your NDP pamphlets. If you were, you would know all these organizations are voluntary organization that no one has to pay dues to. Moreover, the Competition ACT makes it illegal for the National Manufacturer’s Council members to act as a cartel when selling their products. The Canadian bar association and CMA are effectively unions but with voluntary membership. Political parties and Taxpayers Federations are also completely voluntary organizations and don’t even represent sellers of any particular product whether it be a given type of labour or anything else.

A better example would have been marketing boards as anyone buying or selling the product in question has to go through the marketing board.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
Rockslinger said:
I hate this fucking strike:mad: . It is pitting TERBIE against TERBIE!
It's not that bad. It's better here than in a bar, on the picket line, or on the streets. There were differences of opinions on this BB before the strike and there will be after it.
 
Sep 8, 2003
3,768
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Away from here.
www.reddit.com
oldjones said:
You mean you've been going on all this time and only now are you bothering to find out the most basic fact of all? With that sort of wise citizenship contributing to the debate no wonder it's off the rails.

As the media, even on the right, made clear in the weeks before the strike, the contract was due to expire, and the union took a strike vote so that if bargaining which ahd been going on for months, did not produce a new agreement by then, they could walk out immediately. Last time, I'm sure you've forgotten, they continued to work and bargain—unsuccessfully—for months after the old agreement had expired.

It's just possible, though it deeply frightens me, that some of the thinking on the city's side of the table is as prejudiced and uninformed as you've shown yours to be. Certainly there's ample evidence you have company, and it's no mystery how that kind of thinking would lead to dealmaking that would get strike after strike after strike.
I agree with Rockslinger: Blah fucking blah blah. OldJones you make it sound like it's an issue of mechanics or equally weighted bad faith. It's not. The workers are overpaid for manual labour. The sick days just illuminates how stupid the whole thing is. The public will wake up, and if they don't, that's fine too. But the reality is there.

You don't have to be a scholar to know this ;)
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
To OJ, BM and both their friends;

You, your opinions, and your supporters have a long way to go to get the public on your side . Check out the latest AR polls Don't take the easy way out that most politicians do that a poll is only a snapshot of public opinion - except when it shows them in a good light.

It might be a good read. It's only one poll but the strike is still young


http://www.angusreidstrategies.com/uploads/pages/pdfs/2009.06.24_GTAStrike.pdf
 

Mrbig1949

New member
Jun 3, 2009
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According to the Rand Formula membership in a union is also voluntary, you can opt out. Of course you still need to pay the dues because you draw the benefits of the contract. Justice Rand, the wisdom of Soloman.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,809
4,221
113
Mrbig1949 said:
I think they are underpaid Rockslinger!!
OK
You pay the difference between real value and what thier pay is then & leave me and my taxes out of it

Pay them as much as you feel they are worth, but not do expect the taxpayer to pay more than a competitive wage & benefits
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
Mrbig1949 said:
According to the Rand Formula membership in a union is also voluntary, you can opt out. Of course you still need to pay the dues because you draw the benefits of the contract. Justice Rand, the wisdom of Soloman.
Ya, you can opt out, but try and still work in the same place. I've known a couple of people who did and their life was hell at work and in their daily life, in the medium size community. The only people who may have it worse are those who cross the picket line and then try to work after the strike.
 

Mrbig1949

New member
Jun 3, 2009
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There is nothing lower on the Earth than a scab. I have seen a couple in my last workplace quit because nobody will talk to them and even management suggests they move on because they are a deep source of division in the workplace. The other workers keep asking management to choose between the scabs and anybody else. Teachers publish their names and read them at union meetings. The vast majority believe they deserve it. The Chinese say "they want to drink the water but they don't want to help dig the well".
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
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Mrbig1949 said:
There is nothing lower on the Earth than a scab. I have seen a couple in my last workplace quit because nobody will talk to them and even management suggests they move on because they are a deep source of division in the workplace. The other workers keep asking management to choose between the scabs and anybody else. Teachers publish their names and read them at union meetings. The vast majority believe they deserve it. The Chinese say "they want to drink the water but they don't want to help dig the well".
You just proved my point in spades and your own words. A person has that choice not to join, but his life is a living hell. Some choice.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
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I've looked up the often referenced Rand Formula and it's essence is that a union is responsible for all workers, member or not and this what is expected to be done to that end. Big Whoop! I'm sure there's more meat to it than that but in seems to be a guideline on the unions responsible with with employee of a given company.

I'm sure name calling, irritating phone calls, slashing tires and headlocks are not mentioned anywhere.

Your reference to the proverb is cute but really says little. For what ever reason the worker chooses not to have the well in his neighbourhood, yet he has to except it because the majority around him want it and has to accept all crap that the well will bring with it. That not a choice, but that democracy.

It's the much vaunted Rand Formula that puts the responsibility on the unions shoulders that all workers benefit from the labour agreement. That seems to be it.
-----------------------------------------
Not my words, but the following puts it very well.

The Rand formula is a clause which specifies that all the employed must contribute to the union even when they don't want to. The Rand Formula greatly harms individual liberties by giving a re-enforced power to unions. You're a member of the union by force, if it comes to that. The freedom of association does not thus understand the freedom of non-association. It's this clause which best manifests the authoriatarianism of unions in Quebec.

There are good arguments in favor of unionism. Unions can provide useful services to their members, and also play a fundamental role in the protection and representation of unionized interests in front of the boss. From the sociopolitical point of view, unions constitute a barrier between the State and the people and, in general, they contribute to the pluralism of society.

On the other hand, the actual laws ponder the truth of these arguments. In effect, the coercive powers of unions, notably by the entrenchment of the Rand Formula (obligatory membership in a union), giving at the same time the domination of the State and the intermediary powers of civil society. Moreover, as unions represent all people in an organized, accredited unit, it's not certain that they provide the desired services.

But, they said, don't unions provide a real service when they argue for better salaries for the workers? That's true, but we have to take a look at the consequences. The economic analysis shows that if unions succeeded in improving salaries and working conditions of their members without a corresponding increase in productivity, they create unemployment. They redistribute the revenue in favour of their own members at the expense of the unemployed (or, soon-to-be unemployed non-unionized workers).

The creation of so many rules for the labour market, another chief cause of unemploymentis often the byproduct of unionized lobbying. It is without doubt through this corporatist lobbying seeking to preserve priviledges and to block all possible reform that unions excert a most toxic influence on the economy. In effect, this creation of rules serves too often to protect the rights acquired by one minority of workers instead of protecting all workers.

Economic efficacity demands that labour markets be flexible. The magazine The Economist wrote, "There are many things on which economists do not count, but this isn't the case regarding the question of knowing how to put people to work. It is absolutely necessary," they said, "that the labour markets reach a balance between supply and demand, and the best way to achieve this is to maintain flexibility." Elsewhere, many studies established a link between endemic unemployment (at recent highs in Europe) and in America, and the unionization and regulation of the labour market.

This reels in those arguments in favour of syndicalism. If you diminished certain coercive powers of unions (accreditation of all when a simple majority decides, the obligatory membership upon joining, priviledges representing unions in business, etc), and if they became truly voluntary associations, they would certainly be able to render a great service to their members. This solution would no longer be detrimental to other citizens.

We would also have a preview of their utility and of their good work if they were to succeed in keeping their members in the context of liberty. Unions remove, in principle, the right to freedom of association (in which one must also include the right to non-association). The more they reel themselves in, the facts suggest,the more their impact would become truly positive.
 

train

New member
Jul 29, 2002
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Mrbig1949 said:
According to the Rand Formula membership in a union is also voluntary, you can opt out. Of course you still need to pay the dues because you draw the benefits of the contract. Justice Rand, the wisdom of Soloman.
So in our wisdom we have legally mandated all the suckers, er employees, pay off the union and the union doesn't have to publically account for how its spends the money. Sweet. Nice racket. Did I mention tax free?
 

buckwheat1

New member
Nov 20, 2006
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The union is like private company and it files taxes to revenue Canada like any other private company. Any extra money not spent at year end gets turned back into teh strike fund or what is called eserve funds so that when there is a strike they have the funds to pay the striker. Mnay unions are considered non profit and that's because the extra money is put into those reserve funds, it's kind of like insurance companies they have to have so much money on hand to pay out claims when they come in.
 

Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
32,771
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The Rand Formula sounds like communism to me and has no place in a free and democratic society but then only a fool would believe that unions are free and democratic.
 

Mrbig1949

New member
Jun 3, 2009
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We have been living with "Communism" as Rockslinger calls it, oh dear lord, for decades again. Many unions are in fact corporations and goverened accordingly. The Rand formula was the compromise position between all members being forced to join "after a democratic vote" and having a little freedom for consciencious objectors.
 
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