Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[realthing69]

Thanks. I hope things work out for you.

Do you know if any concessions in union contracts have ever been reinstated in "better times"?

That I do not know...

If management said (or signed) stating that they would re-instate. I would think they would. Again that depends on the integrity of management (executives), some are a-holes, while some live up to what they say.

Politicians/lawyers...hmmm I don't know...I just don't trust them. (don't mean that to ALL politicians/lawyers)

 

[Rockslinger]

No you see I work for myself so I don't need a union. It's called "keeping myself competitive".

You tell them, Mao. Real men and women don't need a union. Only the incompetent and the lazy need a bully union to "protect" them. Escorts make $250 an hour and they don't need a union.

 

[Rockslinger]

the reality is supposedly competent and very well paid management negociators put their best case forward years ago and signed a contract with this stuff in it.

Management agreed to this "stuff" because they are negotiating with both hands tied behind their back. Bully and monopolistic unions can and do shut down a plant and a city.

 

[Rockslinger]

Two interesting poll results released in the past 2-3 days. Quite surprising when one considers that Toronto is filled with LLL, socialists and commies .

The Toronto Star poll said that over 80% of Torontonians are against the strikers.

The National Post poll (taken before the strike) said that Tory or Smitherman would beat Miller in an election. Other than destroying the fixed link and constantly trying to kill Porter Air, what are Miller's "achievements"?

 

[The Options Menu]

The Toronto Star poll said that over 80% of Torontonians are against the strikers.

Not exactly shocking though. If you combine the height of tourism season, with heat and garbage, and an dicey economy you're not going to engender a lot of sympathy. (The LCBO's union read things a lot better.)

As and aside-- While we don't agree, I actually thing your point on the nexus between public sector unions and public sector monopoly service providers is probably the most interesting part of this thread. Even in loony left land it's an interesting sort of issue. (I've repeated the sorts of quid pro quo labour reforms I'd like to see, you've actually won a sub amendment there. It's not your 10 /hr Koreans, but it's a concession Besides, if you scooped up all of the Koreans the local incall / MP community would hunt you down.)

 

[Mrbig1949]

One of the things you knuckle draggers don't seem to get is that unions drive up wages and benefits for everybody because the private sector must come in line or not be able to purchase labour on the open market. The high standard of living in the advanced countries of the world was built by the labour movement. Who is out fighting for the 410 minimum wage? Labour is leading the charge. Thank Buzz Hargrove and his friends for the fact that you live in a high wage which means high standard of living economy.

 

[The Options Menu]

One of the things you knuckle draggers don't seem to get is that unions drive up wages and benefits for everybody because the private sector must come in line or not be able to purchase labour on the open market. The high standard of living in the advanced countries of the world was built by the labour movement. Who is out fighting for the 410 minimum wage? Labour is leading the charge. Thank Buzz Hargrove and his friends for the fact that you live in a high wage which means high standard of living economy.

In the west, or it's former colonies, income equality is correlated with GDP per captita is correlated with rates of unionization. You can get into a causation debate, but it has a high degree of repeatability. Somebody here pointed out before that wage growth is inflationary. True, but wage growth also drives 'growth', particularly in the real economy, particularity locally (to the wage earner), and in a manner that is generally helpful to indicators of 'healthy society'. (Pretty much by definition.)

Mind you there are diminishing returns there, and there is an opportunity cost. Eg, each additional dollar in wages is less prone to land locally and land in the real economy, and what is spent in wages and benefits has to be weighed against 'spending on other things'. So if you're getting steady growth, under the rate of inflation, and inequality is actually going down you're probably moving in the right direction as a society. You're also likely to experience protracted stable growth with less economic, political, and social volatility. That's the ultimate demise of the current broadly neoliberal world order. It's 'excessive' application results in it's destruction, and if it does endure societies with a more balanced view of things will plod on by and look at you like quaint barbarians.

 

[Rockslinger]

Even that LLL rag sheet, "EYE", say the city unions are grossly overpaid and the strike is idiotic . See Edward Keenan's column. Governments do not create wealth, they only redistribute it.

 

[chillgil]

Sick days explanation

Ok , this is how the sick days work. I am a City employee and I know.

First off you get 18 days per year and yes you do get to bank anything you don't use. When you retire or leave the City you can get paid for half of your remaining sick days up to a maximum of 6 months.

I guess the idea is that it would be an incentive to not to take sick days. So, if you you earn 50 G's the maximun you could get is a 25 G payout minus taxes.

Like it or not that is what has been in place. There are many people who worked for the city who have accumulated sick days and are expecting a payout when the leave the city.

The city wants to say we are going to change the system and go to a system that actually will give more days by the way for staff who have been with the City for over 10 years. Sick days for employess with less than 10 years will get only a % of pay rather than 100%. I don't know all of the particulars as I am a union memeber and am not privy to any official information regarding negotiations.

The issue is not the amount of sick days given, the issue is the amount of money that is already owed as well as newer employees not getting 100% sick days.

When I started at the City 20 years ago thats the way it was. For the past 20 years I have gone to work many days when I was ill in order to try to build a payout for myself when I retire or that I can use if I encounter a serious illness.

I also want to point out I have no choice whatsoever as to being in the union or to going on strike.
We actaully don"t vote to strike. We have to vote to give a strike mandate during negotiations. If we don"t give them the mandate it weakens out position.

One last point. I always hear that we should not expect a raise because we are in a recession.
When times are good there are plenty of layoffs as a lot of City workers are not needed, like in Hostels, Social Services and other Social Divisions . When times are bad we can't get a raise because of the economy.
I don't ever remember being told that the economy is good so we are going to get a decent raise.

If you tink its tough becuase your garbage is piling up, well so is mine and I can't pay my rent!

Even that LLL rag sheet, "EYE", say the city unions are grossly overpaid and the strike is idiotic . See Edward Keenan's column. Governments do not create wealth, they only redistribute it.

 

[t.o.leafs.fan]

"First, I'm finishing my undergrad, and I do have the grades. In the U.S. you get a Master's degree after one year rather than two in Ontario.

Second, I have the marks.

Third, the correct spelling is 'hear', not 'here'"

I'd do some homework first. Many boards are no longer honouring the U.S. Masters qualification.

 

[binderman]

One of the things you knuckle draggers don't seem to get is that unions drive up wages and benefits for everybody because the private sector must come in line or not be able to purchase labour on the open market. The high standard of living in the advanced countries of the world was built by the labour movement. Who is out fighting for the 410 minimum wage? Labour is leading the charge. Thank Buzz Hargrove and his friends for the fact that you live in a high wage which means high standard of living economy.

Then those work camps where everyone labors like the gulags in the old Soviet Union and current day Cuba and North Korea must be filled with multi-billionaires.

 

[JohnLarue]

Then those work camps where everyone labors like the gulags in the old Soviet Union and current day Cuba and North Korea must be filled with multi-billionaires.

None of those countries were free-market economies.
Hardley a relevant comparison

 

[Rockslinger]

Ok , this is how the sick days work. I am a City employee and I know.

I hear you and we can bury ourselves in details but everybody, including "pinkies" like the Toronto Star and Eye, are saying that the city workers are grossly overpaid for the work they do compared to their private sector homologues. That is the bottom line.

 

[JohnLarue]

One of the things you knuckle draggers don't seem to get is that unions drive up wages and benefits for everybody because the private sector must come in line or not be able to purchase labour on the open market. The high standard of living in the advanced countries of the world was built by the labour movement. Who is out fighting for the 410 minimum wage? Labour is leading the charge. Thank Buzz Hargrove and his friends for the fact that you live in a high wage which means high standard of living economy.

What you are ignoring is the inflationary effect that Buzz & his friends embed into the economy with ever increasing wage demands.
In the end someone has to pay up & it is generally the consumer / taxpayer

The other issue this argument ignores is the disconnect between the cost & the value of the services delivered.

Do I want my garbage picked up ?
Yes
Do I want to have to pay higher rent or property taxes in order to have this done?
No _They are high enough already

But in order to ensure that garbage collectors get this ridiculous benefit (sick day bank) they feel they are entitled to my rent or property taxes will have to go up

It is a transfer of wealth that
1. Is inequitable (they certainly have not earned it)
2. Is being done without my input
3. Its is being done under the threat of a strike (this is despicable)

That is what Buzz & his friends know, understand (he is exceptionally intelligent) & ignore.
For that I could do without his great contribution to inflation and only wish he had put his intellect & efforts into something that benefited all, not just the unions.

Sid Ryan on the other hand is a complete fool & needs to be muzzled

 

[realthing69]

With all the parades happening this weekend, what's the situation in regards to garbage cleanup after all the parades???

 

[spankingman]

Garbage Goons

I KNOW this will piss off a few terbies but tough noogies!!!

I STRONGLY feel that the OUTSIDE workers (the garbage workers) should be classed as ESSENTIAL SERVICES. Their lack of action will no doubt result if it hasnt already in HEALTH ISSUES ie: stench,infestation of rodents etc.

Unions are ALWAYS BIG on Health and Safety of their member on the job,how about the REST of the people who are suffering the above problems.

Times have changed,be happy you HAVE a job with the perks you have. Take a page from the CAW book and get back to reality and oh yeah BACK TO WORK for the good of the people (who pay your salary) You are fast losing the support of the people. And yes I belong to a Union.

 

[Toke]

"First, I'm finishing my undergrad, and I do have the grades. In the U.S. you get a Master's degree after one year rather than two in Ontario.

Second, I have the marks.

Third, the correct spelling is 'hear', not 'here'"

I'd do some homework first. Many boards are no longer honouring the U.S. Masters qualification.

Thanks. I have.

 

[Rockslinger]

Ultimately it's us the general public who are to be blamed as we voted for the current administration to run things.

I never voted to give these union bullies 18 sick days and wages and benefits that are at least 12% above fair market value.

I called my city councillor's office and said that I am a taxpayer. The gentleman in the councillor's office said the stikers are also taxpayers. BUT, I SAID THAT THE STRIKERS RECOVER ALL THEIR TAXES AND MULTIPLES MORE THROUGH INFLATED WAGES!

 

[Mrbig1949]

A "free labour market dufus".

 

[Mrbig1949]

You either have 'free collective bargaining' or you don't. If you do, organized workers will do well creating an incentive for others to organize. If you do not have free collective bargaining as is the situation in totaliterian states of the left and right, Nazi Germany Communist China, then you have pent-up frustration that will eventually lead to a Lech Walensa type Polish uprising and a democracy. Democracy is characterized by free collective bargaining, it is as the UN says is a human right. End of story. If you don't like this and work at say Wal-mart, go organize a union or quit and work where there is one. There is no such thing as democracy without a powerful union movement. Get used to it.