Asterix said:
Pehaps it's God's 'mystical sense of humor' that George Carlin speaks about every now and then.......
God told Bush to invade Iraq: BBC !
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Pehaps it's God's 'mystical sense of humor' that George Carlin speaks about every now and then.......
Since some here believe Bush tald God where to send KATRIA, I expect many would also believe God talked to him, too.
I'm just asking a question. All the religions, and some more secular schools of philosophy and history, assert that God does at least some of His work on Earth through the civil power. Yet some people reject the proposition that God might be doing his work through Bush as though it were self-evidently false. Do they know something the rest of us don't ?WoodPeckr said:
Depends how you define your God.Truncador said:
The above God that 'does at least some of His work on Earth through the civil power' must not be 'perfect' since he needs some help.
A perfect God by definition, does it all on His own being all powerful, knowing, loving etc., needing no human assistance. The only fly in the ointment is that nasty 'problem of evil' which gets in the way of a perfect God.
Here is Andy Rooney's response, when Pat Robertson claimed that God was speaking to him:
It doesn't seem right, but religion has been in the news a lot recently.
Pat Robertson says that God has spoken to him and told him that George W. Bush will be re-elected because he deserves to be.
Here's Pat Robertson's exact quote: "I think George Bush is going to win in a walk. I'm hearing from the Lord that it's going to be a blowout."
The movie by Mel Gibson called “The Passion of the Christ” is the other religious issue in the news. Everyone's talking about that. The question is whether the Jews killed Jesus Christ - who was Jewish, of course.
I hadn't wanted to say anything about this, because it seemed like a personal matter, but Pat Robertson isn't the only one who has heard from God.
I heard from God just the other night. God always seems to call at night.
"Andrew," God said to me. He always calls me "Andrew." I like that.
"Andrew, you have the eyes and ears of a lot of people. I wish you'd tell your viewers that both Pat Robertson and Mel Gibson strike me as wackos. I believe that's one of your current words. They're crazy as bedbugs, another earthly expression. I created bedbugs. I'll tell you, they're no crazier than people,” said God.
"Let me just say that I think I'd remember if I'd ever talked to Pat Robertson, and I'd remember if I said Bush would get re-elected in a blowout."
“As far as Mel Gibson goes, I haven't seen his movie, 'The Passion of the Christ,' because it hasn't opened up here yet. But I did catch Gibson being interviewed by Diane Sawyer. I did something right when I came up with her, didn't I,” added God. “Anyway, as I was saying, Mel is a real nut case. What in the world was I thinking when I created him? Listen, we all make mistakes."
That is what God said to me. That's about all he did say to me because I'm sure God has a lot more important things to do than talk to someone on television.
My own question to Pat Robertson is this: The election looks as though it could be close, certainly not a blowout. If George W. Bush loses the election to a Democrat, will you become an atheist?
My question to Mel Gibson is: "How many million dollars does it look as if you're going to make off the crucifixion of Christ?"
Written By Andy Rooney © MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
It doesn't seem right, but religion has been in the news a lot recently.
Pat Robertson says that God has spoken to him and told him that George W. Bush will be re-elected because he deserves to be.
Here's Pat Robertson's exact quote: "I think George Bush is going to win in a walk. I'm hearing from the Lord that it's going to be a blowout."
The movie by Mel Gibson called “The Passion of the Christ” is the other religious issue in the news. Everyone's talking about that. The question is whether the Jews killed Jesus Christ - who was Jewish, of course.
I hadn't wanted to say anything about this, because it seemed like a personal matter, but Pat Robertson isn't the only one who has heard from God.
I heard from God just the other night. God always seems to call at night.
"Andrew," God said to me. He always calls me "Andrew." I like that.
"Andrew, you have the eyes and ears of a lot of people. I wish you'd tell your viewers that both Pat Robertson and Mel Gibson strike me as wackos. I believe that's one of your current words. They're crazy as bedbugs, another earthly expression. I created bedbugs. I'll tell you, they're no crazier than people,” said God.
"Let me just say that I think I'd remember if I'd ever talked to Pat Robertson, and I'd remember if I said Bush would get re-elected in a blowout."
“As far as Mel Gibson goes, I haven't seen his movie, 'The Passion of the Christ,' because it hasn't opened up here yet. But I did catch Gibson being interviewed by Diane Sawyer. I did something right when I came up with her, didn't I,” added God. “Anyway, as I was saying, Mel is a real nut case. What in the world was I thinking when I created him? Listen, we all make mistakes."
That is what God said to me. That's about all he did say to me because I'm sure God has a lot more important things to do than talk to someone on television.
My own question to Pat Robertson is this: The election looks as though it could be close, certainly not a blowout. If George W. Bush loses the election to a Democrat, will you become an atheist?
My question to Mel Gibson is: "How many million dollars does it look as if you're going to make off the crucifixion of Christ?"
Written By Andy Rooney © MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4322228.stm
Editorial in pan-Arab Al-Quds Al-Arabi
US President Bush told his Palestinian guests that he was driven with a mission from God... Had those statements come from an ordinary person, he would have been arrested straight away and taken to a lunatic asylum for treatment... Such statements cannot be made by someone who is mentally sound.
Editorial in Saudi Arabia's Al-Jazirah
The statements attributed to US President Bush on God's message to fight terrorists in Afghanistan and end the tyranny in Iraq... indicate that America is striving to practise a series of firm ideological principles, even if this is a major source of detriment to US interests and the interests of the Middle East... The fallacy of Bush's ideology lies in the fact that Bush thinks it is America's right to decide people's fate.
Editorial in pan-Arab Al-Quds Al-Arabi
US President Bush told his Palestinian guests that he was driven with a mission from God... Had those statements come from an ordinary person, he would have been arrested straight away and taken to a lunatic asylum for treatment... Such statements cannot be made by someone who is mentally sound.
Editorial in Saudi Arabia's Al-Jazirah
The statements attributed to US President Bush on God's message to fight terrorists in Afghanistan and end the tyranny in Iraq... indicate that America is striving to practise a series of firm ideological principles, even if this is a major source of detriment to US interests and the interests of the Middle East... The fallacy of Bush's ideology lies in the fact that Bush thinks it is America's right to decide people's fate.
why is there such a concentrated effot here to discredit BUSH
After all this is a Canadian Board.
After all this is a Canadian Board.
This argument isn't logically air-tight. You can't make a necessarily true inference about what people or Gods can't do from what they actually do. For example, if, looking out my window, I observe a man riding by on a bicycle, I cannot conclude with certainty that he can't drive a car, and would very likely turn out to be wrong if I did so. Similarly, it could be the case that God works through the civil power because he prefers to do things that way, not because he has to. Perhaps God, like any good civil ruler, eschews totalitarian personal control of all human affairs in favour of a laissez-faire approach; instead of dictating everything directly and running things like some sort of Divine police-State, he judiciously and unobtrusively tweaks an otherwise self-regulating social system once in a while.WoodPeckr said:
If God exists, she must not care a lot about humans, or animals, or this particular planet for that matter.
Maybe she is fully occupied with creating antimatter somewhere else in the universe, or trying her best to keep the universe from expanding too fast.
Maybe she is fully occupied with creating antimatter somewhere else in the universe, or trying her best to keep the universe from expanding too fast.
By the same token you logically can’t reject the hypothesis that “god” is a bunch of nonsense that impressionable people use as an escape to help them get through life. I’m willing to accept that having an imaginary friend who talked to him would have helped Bush get over his alcoholism and drug problems. In such cases, religion can do some good. However, we are talking about matters more important to the world than his adiction problems. If imaginary conversations are involved, it would explain some of his misguided polices but it is not comforting.Truncador said:
If a person believes God is speaking directly to them encouraging them to improve their lives or help others, I may or may not believe it, but if they choose to, more power to them. I draw the line when leaders claim God has told them to invade other countries under false pretenses, leading to the death of thousands. I would have to conclude such a leader was either delusional or a coward, possibly both, and using God to deflect from their own responsiblity.
I don't think Bush actually believes that God told him to invade Iraq. I think it's more likely that he said this to appease his core constituency, the Bible Belt in the Heartland. There was a god that told him to invade Iraq: the god of politics and returning favors to Saudi donors.
If God did tell him, God got it right. However I believe that when people talk to god it's called prayer when god talks to you it's called schizophrenia.
OK, I guess since this story has broaken into the open it's ok for me to lay it down for you.
The way it works is GOD tells me what to do and then I explain it to W, she makes a suggestion and I turn it into an action oriented verb....
OTB
The way it works is GOD tells me what to do and then I explain it to W, she makes a suggestion and I turn it into an action oriented verb....
OTB
Ontological arguments proving God exists are flawed
Came monday lecture he asked if we still felt good about his past fri class and then proceeded to completely demolish and destroy the above proof for God with the Problem of Evil. It was devastating!
He claimed he thought there was a God but said that was merely based on Faith....he said that's all there is faith and hope nothing more if you believe God exists.
Found a snapshot of that argument he ran by us back then:
...For instance, in the Fifth Meditation, Descartes claims to provide a proof demonstrating the existence of God from the idea of a supremely perfect being. Descartes argues that there is no less contradiction in conceiving a supremely perfect being who lacks existence than there is in conceiving a triangle whose interior angles do not sum to 180 degrees. Hence, he supposes, since we do conceive a supremely perfect being — we do have the idea of a supremely perfect being — we must conclude that a supremely perfect being exists.
The fact still remains why would a 'perfect' God (all powerfull, knowing, loving and ALL JUST) create/allow evil in the first place, in all its varied forms i.e. natural disasters, of which the latest earthquake in Pakistan with a death toll around 20,000, the recent Asian tsunami which killed approximately 275,000 people, not to mention diseases, such as cancer, birth defects etc? All these are evils this 'perfect' God allows and have no bearing on the moral/ethical standards that God desires, thus leading to evil.
Saying a perfectly loving and all-powerful God must allow for the existence of evil by His very nature seems a bit perverse since simple education would solve the whole moral/ethical standards that God desires, so as to eliminate the need of being exposed to these moral/ethical examples of evil in the first place.
Remember many many years ago taking a fascinating 'Philosophy of Religion' course at university. The prof was a very sharp hardcore Lutheran who on a friday lecture had the entire class believe there was indeed a God. He used an ontological argument (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/) to prove God did in fact exist, can't recall all the details now without checking but believe it was based on Perfection (God by defintion must be Perfect) that we had never been exposed to this type of argument before.... it was brillant, seemed foolproof ! He told us to enjoy the weekend, repent & be saved.stedon said:
Came monday lecture he asked if we still felt good about his past fri class and then proceeded to completely demolish and destroy the above proof for God with the Problem of Evil. It was devastating!
He claimed he thought there was a God but said that was merely based on Faith....he said that's all there is faith and hope nothing more if you believe God exists.
Found a snapshot of that argument he ran by us back then:
...For instance, in the Fifth Meditation, Descartes claims to provide a proof demonstrating the existence of God from the idea of a supremely perfect being. Descartes argues that there is no less contradiction in conceiving a supremely perfect being who lacks existence than there is in conceiving a triangle whose interior angles do not sum to 180 degrees. Hence, he supposes, since we do conceive a supremely perfect being — we do have the idea of a supremely perfect being — we must conclude that a supremely perfect being exists.
The fact still remains why would a 'perfect' God (all powerfull, knowing, loving and ALL JUST) create/allow evil in the first place, in all its varied forms i.e. natural disasters, of which the latest earthquake in Pakistan with a death toll around 20,000, the recent Asian tsunami which killed approximately 275,000 people, not to mention diseases, such as cancer, birth defects etc? All these are evils this 'perfect' God allows and have no bearing on the moral/ethical standards that God desires, thus leading to evil.
Saying a perfectly loving and all-powerful God must allow for the existence of evil by His very nature seems a bit perverse since simple education would solve the whole moral/ethical standards that God desires, so as to eliminate the need of being exposed to these moral/ethical examples of evil in the first place.
Now that we are getting into a serious discussion about the existence of God, please allow me to present the following paper:
The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.
Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and taking into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"
The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.
Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and taking into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"
IMSO
There has to be a clear understanding that religion or church and God and spirituality are not the same thing.
Religion and churches are human inventions created to make sense of spirituality or the existence of a higher being. They also exist to give spirituality a more tangible form. In this, each culture has it's own belief system. While they all trying to make sense of the same thing, they all have their own set of rules and structures.
Unfortunately most of them claim to have "the only right one", but that's a whole different discussion.
Spirituality or the believe in a supreme being or power is a way for humans to get a compass in life. A way to make sense of their existence.
This is very individual and can take many forms. It is universal, because the concept applies to almost all religions.
I hope I make sense...
There has to be a clear understanding that religion or church and God and spirituality are not the same thing.
Religion and churches are human inventions created to make sense of spirituality or the existence of a higher being. They also exist to give spirituality a more tangible form. In this, each culture has it's own belief system. While they all trying to make sense of the same thing, they all have their own set of rules and structures.
Unfortunately most of them claim to have "the only right one", but that's a whole different discussion.
Spirituality or the believe in a supreme being or power is a way for humans to get a compass in life. A way to make sense of their existence.
This is very individual and can take many forms. It is universal, because the concept applies to almost all religions.
I hope I make sense...
Gee all this over what God may or may not have said and to whom. I find it very humorous that some on the board - Cyrus, are very willing to source Arab sources regarding G W Bush's statements regarding God.
What I find funny is how these people seem to forget the 1995/1996 press conference that Bin Laden and al Zawari held announcing a world wide jihad against the infidels, mainly the US (believe it or not they left Israel out of this rant) and how it was god's commandment to them to do this.
I think it's real sad when people get sucked in to the radical Sunni's and their apologists propaganda machine.
I really don't want to do this but I should ask Cyrus, which god is right?
What I find funny is how these people seem to forget the 1995/1996 press conference that Bin Laden and al Zawari held announcing a world wide jihad against the infidels, mainly the US (believe it or not they left Israel out of this rant) and how it was god's commandment to them to do this.
I think it's real sad when people get sucked in to the radical Sunni's and their apologists propaganda machine.
I really don't want to do this but I should ask Cyrus, which god is right?
It was more like just adding the infidels, mainly the US onto their revised list of enemies.The Mugger said:
Israel was always on that list from day 1, so no need to mention Israel again.
Which God is right...that's easy...your own God is always the right One...
