Harper's cabinet two step

[clubber]

Clubber:

The ideal of communism is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That's Canada. They take from me and when I need them they tell me to come back in five months. Zero freedom on health expenditures equals communism. They're not only forcing me to pay for something that I think sucks, but they won't let me choose an alternative other than foreign countries. I asked them to do certain tests and they refused. Maybe they should give me some tax money back to make up for their lack of service.

As far as political correctness goes, I'm sorry, but I was pissed off and I couldn't help it. Some things just get to me sometimes. I used the wrong tone and that was my fault.

I feel the same way about our roads. Damn it, why do I have to pay for these crappy roads. Why can't I just fly a plane or helicopter. I am licensed for both. Communism I say. Facist socalist communism.

Then they set these damn speed limits, and if I happen to go over them because I am a great driver, guess what Some Communist Pig pulls me over and gives me a ticket. I think the guy is a prick, I pull out my rocket launcher and clear the world of one stupid facist pig, and they want to lock me up. Fascism, communism socialism. I want democracy.

Oops what was that word I just wrote. DEMOCRACY. Ours is a system in which a democratically elected government is given the power to bring forth laws and programs that govern us all. When the manority government of Liberals backed by the NDP put forth the Heath Care system it was greeted and worked well for quite sometime. It replaced no system. I doubt you are old enough to have lived though that system, but it was worse than what we have now. Something had to be done.

No system last for ever. Public Private, or any sort. Everything falls apart, and after Mulroney's government alot of Canadian institutions were in trouble. From your posts I also don't think you are old enough to remember the pain, the lies and corruption of Mulroney. This is one of the reasons few of the older people were shocked or really cared much about the adcam, Gomrie report, sponsership scandle. The Toronto Sun I think used 10 different words for it to make its readers think it was 10 different scandles, as did the conservatives. Great politics, but not really being truthful. Today we still are paying for Mulroney's government.

I had a look into the Swiss System you said was so great. A small country with little poverty, less sickness, cleaner air, a general population that is in better shape and eats better. Run by private health care that works, under a lot of rules and regulations. Hilary Clinton based alot of what she brought forth while her husband was President. Your Republican buddies in the US have called it Facist. If you can get these ideas past the Special interest groups, along with the drug prices they have. It might just work.

The best thing we can do for any system we adopt will be to get a more fit public, and get rid of cigarettes, trans fats, and clean up the air. Do as the Swiss do, better wages for the lowest paying workers, and lessen our stress.

We need to train more Doctors to start with. This is the Number 1 problem. How many people in this country do not have a family doctor? They have to use After Hours clinics, or Emergency for simple things, or just suffer. Something at first easily treated becomes major. Something that might of been a 20 dollar fix becomes a 20 thousand dollar fix.

Way too much paperwork. We have a system that is not quite socialized and not quite private. Doctors get paid the same for paperwork they do that has to do with running their business, as they do as a doctor. The average medical student can expect to leave University with over a quarter a million dollars in debt, then for some odd reason expect to make alot of money to so they can pay off this debt.

Now is this the fault of the Federal Government, of course it is, because it is Provincial Jurisdiction, and therefore the area where the Provinces blame the Federal Government. You see the feds don't give them enough money. You see in Quebec the PQ somehow managed to put that money into funds to promote their seperatists views. Alberta gave a good bit away to the poor oil companies in grants, Ontario had to have these tax cuts you see. So you see it is the fault of the Feds for not giving the provinces enough money.

Then the Feds want to have a look and put on conditions to get them more money, and what the hell this is provincial jurisdiction, how the hell can these idiots in Ottawa think they can get away with this.

How can the Feds impose any system upon the provinces now. Just give the provinces more money and let them deal with it, of course they won't and will spend the money however they want to. We do need a Canada wide soloution, not this patch work crap. On many things we need to see if we should really have provincial or federal jurisdiction. Do what is right, but we alway end up doing what is politcally easiest, and then point fingers and blame each other.

 

[Sergei]

Comparing speed-limits to health care is ridiculous.

You did not address my central point, which is: nobody has the right to force other people to wait in line to go to the doctor when they prefer to spend their AFTER-TAX money to go to the doctor right away.

In some countries the government actually PAYS people a percentage of their private health costs because it saves them the expenses associated with that patient and lessens waiting times for the rest.

Doesn't anybody else see this????????????????????????????

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

now of course the Liberals tell us that the Environment is our number one concern and only "they" can fix it .. Like Canadian Unity and Health and .....
all the other near disasters they fixed..

...... and caused.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

1) Why is it that Canadians have such a holier than thou attitude vis a vis the American health care system? The world health organization ranks Canada way below the top 30 in health outcomes. The Americans have health freedom, something Canadians don't have, on account of their unfounded attitude of moral superiority. Spending your life on medical waiting lists is a disgrace.

2) What do Liberals do when they get sick? Go the USA of course.

3) I suppose the true definition of a Canadian is "not American," since Canadians always compare themselves with what they think are the bad aspects of the USA. Why didn't you compare Canada to Sweden, Austria, or the United Arab Emirates? The Emirates blow Canada out of the water in every possible way. Or why not compare to the good things the US has to offer? Like the first amendment and health care freedom, for example.

It's not wise to critisize the sacred cow Canadian health care system. Mainly because of the underlying Canadian inferiority complex with regrads to the U.S.

Personally, I would prefer to spend a $1000 a month for health insurance and receive proper care.

Considering the tax implications, it's a lot cheaper for a better product.

 

[onthebottom]

It's not wise to critisize the sacred cow Canadian health care system. Mainly because of the underlying Canadian inferiority complex with regrads to the U.S.

Personally, I would prefer to spend a $1000 a month for health insurance and receive proper care.

Considering the tax implications, it's a lot cheaper for a better product.

I spend about 120 dollars a month, before tax.... best care anywhere.

OTB

 

[clubber]

The Libs held power for 12 years but remember the responsibility for the environment is predominantly within provincial jurisdiction. So on the subject of global warming, why aren't you blaming Conservative premier Ralph Klein? He was the (shudder) environment minister in Don Getty's government before becoming the premier in 1992. So he had previous environmental experience, even more time than the federal Liberals did and emissions were within his provincial jurisdiction. So it was HIS fucking job to curb emissions but he, like most of those Alberta conservatives, just hid his head in the sand and hoped it would all go away. Just like Stockwell and Rona and Harper.

Meanwhile, Dion was Environment Minister for 17 months, starting in July 2004. That isn't very long but he DID get a few things done:

http://www.liberal.ca/members_e.aspx?id=2369
"Among his accomplishments as Environment Minister, Mr. Dion won international agreement to extend the Kyoto protocol beyond 2012 at the follow-up to the Kyoto Conference on Climate Change in Montreal in December 2005. This followed his announcement, in April 2005, of Project Green – an updated climate change plan to honour its Kyoto commitments. In June 2005, Mr. Dion also announced $9.2 million in funding to help protect species at risk and their habitat."


This is part of the CBC Kyoto timeline. I've shown only the events that occurred during Dion's tenure as environment minister:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/timeline.html

[2004]
Sept. 30: Russia approves Kyoto and later formally ratifies it, giving the protocol enough support for it to go into force in February 2005.

December: Canada finally abandons attempt to win emission credits for exporting clean natural gas and hydroelectric power to the U.S.

2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
January: Several media organizations say Ottawa is about to announce a revamp of its 2002 Kyoto implementation plan.

Feb. 16: Kyoto Protocol formally goes into force. Canada still has not released details of how it will achieve its Kyoto commitments.

March 23: The federal government and Canada's car makers reach an agreement on emissions standards. Automakers agree that its new vehicles will cut emissions by 5.3 megatonnes by 2010 as part of Ottawa's Kyoto plan.

April 6: The minority Liberal government offers to pull a controversial provision dealing with the Kyoto accord from its budget bill. The opposition Conservatives, NDP and Bloc Québécois have all said they would vote against the budget because of the provision, which would make greenhouse gas emissions a controlled substance so Ottawa could regulate them. In order to appease the opposition, Liberal House leader Tony Valeri offers a deal to Conservative House leader Jay Hill that will allow the finance committee to reject the proposal.

April 13: The federal government announces details of its Kyoto implementation plan, which revamps the plan it put in place almost three years earlier. The government pledges $10 billion to cut greenhouse gases by 270 megatonnes a year by 2008-2012. The plan relaxes emission targets for large industrial polluters.

April 14: Environmentalists say parts of Ottawa's new plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions will be good for the Atlantic region. The Atlantic chapter of the Sierra Club of Canada says promoting the use of alternative energy sources is ideal because Atlantic Canada has a high wind potential. But they're disappointed with the targets set for large polluters. Large companies create almost half of the country's emissions, but they are only required to reduce them by about 14 per cent.

A Yukon environmental group says federal plans fall far short of what's needed. The Yukon Conservation Society says the government is only promising to consult with large firms that produce about 50 per cent of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions, rather than force them to cut their CO2 production.

Nov. 3: Alberta files a formal objection to the federal government's plans to implement the Kyoto accord and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Alberta has long opposed the Kyoto accord, saying it will hurt the province's lucrative oil and gas industry. Provincial Environment Minister Guy Boutilier says Alberta should be allowed to put its own legislation in place to regulate greenhouse gas emissions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephane_Dion
..."Canada's poor Kyoto implementation record did not prevent Dion from earning high praise for his work chairing the U.N. Climate Change summit (COP 11/MOP 1) in Montreal in 2005. [36] Later, when Dion's record as environment minister was under scrutiny in the closing days of the Liberal leadership campaign, former Sierra Club of Canada director and current leader of the Green Party of Canada Elizabeth May came to his defence, calling him a "very very good environment minister."[37]


So would you like to reconsider your earlier statement: "Don't forget the current Lieberal Leacher Dion was Enironment minister for 17 months ... he didn't even have a clean air plan , just Toss the word Koyoto around and diss the Americans...".

You did your homework. Well done. Liberals tend to react very slowly. During most of the time in power they were concerned about the economy. They came into a nearly bankrupt situation. They took a 40 billion Deficit, and turned it into a 13 billion surplus. There were alot of other things that happened during their time, including the World Trade Towers bombings, going to war in Afghanistan, and facing down Bush Blair, and Harper by not going to war in Iraq. The enviroment was considered the property of the provinces. They got their hands slapped every time the mentioned it. Alberta and Quebec are very territorial about their powers and usually get the backing of most of the other provinces quickly.

Dion spent 17 months and I think became awared during that time. The bi-election which the Green Party came second also sent a message. Since Global warming was first identified in the 1950's very little has been done by anyone. So if Dion has woken up finally I say go for it. If the Conservatives have finally woken up, and if Baird is going to give us a good workable plan, I say go for it.

Question: Why is it Conservatives never say the good job the have done, all they do is run down the Liberals? Is that all they can do? Please let us have one post where someone tells us the good things the Conservatives have done and not say a word about the liberals? Come on toot your horn and not your ass.

 

[clubber]

It's not wise to critisize the sacred cow Canadian health care system. Mainly because of the underlying Canadian inferiority complex with regrads to the U.S.

Personally, I would prefer to spend a $1000 a month for health insurance and receive proper care.

Considering the tax implications, it's a lot cheaper for a better product.

Please do your homework. USA spends more of it's GDP on Medical Care than we do, and yet it is not even universal. Clinton made some changes that has improved it alot. Canada spends more of its GDP than most other nations, who get better care. Yet one of the big pluses for business coming to Canada is the low cost of medical coverage for it's workers. Ask GM Ford Toyota, any company that employs people in both countries. They will say the cost of medical coverage is so much better in Canada.

Note it is not free as is often said. We pay for our Health Care System through all the many taxes. Much can be done to make it better and cheaper. More Doctors, and cheaper tuiton fees at least for medical students. Our stats about the amounts of people we will have in 5 and 10 the coming years has been pretty close, so why can't we be sure we have enough doctors trained, as well as other needed medical staff. Simple math actually

Get good people to go over the laws and systems with a fine tooth comb and get rid of all the needless paperwork. Get the provinces to give up their power in this so we can have a Canada wide solution, and not a patchwork piece of crap.

This type of thing is a tough undertaking, and as you mentioned it is a sacred cow. Something Canada did well for a while, and we are still proud of. We elected Brian Mulroney woke up one day and something was wrong with it. 'Create a crisis and privatize.'

 

[onthebottom]

Please do your homework. USA spends more of it's GDP on Medical Care than we do, and yet it is not even universal. Clinton made some changes that has improved it alot. Canada spends more of its GDP than most other nations, who get better care. Yet one of the big pluses for business coming to Canada is the low cost of medical coverage for it's workers. Ask GM Ford Toyota, any company that employs people in both countries. They will say the cost of medical coverage is so much better in Canada.

Note it is not free as is often said. We pay for our Health Care System through all the many taxes. Much can be done to make it better and cheaper. More Doctors, and cheaper tuiton fees at least for medical students. Our stats about the amounts of people we will have in 5 and 10 the coming years has been pretty close, so why can't we be sure we have enough doctors trained, as well as other needed medical staff. Simple math actually

Get good people to go over the laws and systems with a fine tooth comb and get rid of all the needless paperwork. Get the provinces to give up their power in this so we can have a Canada wide solution, and not a patchwork piece of crap.

This type of thing is a tough undertaking, and as you mentioned it is a sacred cow. Something Canada did well for a while, and we are still proud of. We elected Brian Mulroney woke up one day and something was wrong with it. 'Create a crisis and privatize.'

Actually, the POTUS with the largest increase in public health care is Bush.

OTB

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Please do your homework. USA spends more of it's GDP on Medical Care than we do, and yet it is not even universal. Clinton made some changes that has improved it alot. Canada spends more of its GDP than most other nations, who get better care. Yet one of the big pluses for business coming to Canada is the low cost of medical coverage for it's workers. Ask GM Ford Toyota, any company that employs people in both countries. They will say the cost of medical coverage is so much better in Canada.

Note it is not free as is often said. We pay for our Health Care System through all the many taxes. Much can be done to make it better and cheaper. More Doctors, and cheaper tuiton fees at least for medical students. Our stats about the amounts of people we will have in 5 and 10 the coming years has been pretty close, so why can't we be sure we have enough doctors trained, as well as other needed medical staff. Simple math actually

Get good people to go over the laws and systems with a fine tooth comb and get rid of all the needless paperwork. Get the provinces to give up their power in this so we can have a Canada wide solution, and not a patchwork piece of crap.

This type of thing is a tough undertaking, and as you mentioned it is a sacred cow. Something Canada did well for a while, and we are still proud of. We elected Brian Mulroney woke up one day and something was wrong with it. 'Create a crisis and privatize.'

You left out an important consideration. Due to the litigious nature of American society, Doctors pay huge amounts for liability insurance. This has to be factored into the costs.

I've lived and worked in both countries and I've experienced both health care systems. I don't need to do homework as you say, because I can speak from personal experience. Can you?

I prefer to pay a little more for better service. Since other Canadians travel south for better health care, I'm obviously not alone.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Question: Why is it Conservatives never say the good job the have done, all they do is run down the Liberals? Is that all they can do? Please let us have one post where someone tells us the good things the Conservatives have done and not say a word about the liberals?

They do. The problem is the Liberals don't listen

 

[clubber]

They do. The problem is the Liberals don't listen

Just proved the point. Not a word of what the Consevatives have done, but attack the liberals. Well done I hope Harper gives you a nice biscuit and pat on the head.

 

[Never Compromised]

Liberals tend to react very slowly. During most of the time in power they were concerned about the economy. They came into a nearly bankrupt situation. They took a 40 billion Deficit, and turned it into a 13 billion surplus.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that it is quite fair or accurate to suggest that the Liberals came to power looking at a bankrupt country. Believe it or not, PET was the cause of Canada's huge deficit. A Liberal that spent like a socialist, taxed like a socialist and introduced governement programmes like a socialist.

Mulroney, like it or not, managed to reduce the deficit and did so without gutting health care. When Mulroney left office, the feds paid to the provinces 50% of health care costs. When Martin was finished, the feds paid 16% of health care costs and Martin stood up and took credit for balancing the books and bringing back fiscal responsibility. Bullshit, Martin balanced his books on the back of the provinces. Unlike Mulroney.

When it comes to the economy, the Liberals are no saviours. And unlike prudent businessmen, they left office without a long term plan in place. The Liberal agenda is one of reaction, not prudent planning and stewardship.

 

[clubber]

You left out an important consideration. Due to the litigious nature of American society, Doctors pay huge amounts for liability insurance. This has to be factored into the costs.

I've lived and worked in both countries and I've experienced both health care systems. I don't need to do homework as you say, because I can speak from personal experience. Can you?

I prefer to pay a little more for better service. Since other Canadians travel south for better health care, I'm obviously not alone.

Very true about the insurance a huge special interest group that also wishes to go private. The US has the highest cost for malpractice. It is something we have to get a handle on if we want any system to work.

I also recall why we had to change our health cards. People coming up from the US with fake ones so they could get our health care. Lots of people crossing the borders to get our cheaper drugs, and now heavily using the internet to get these same cheaper Canadian Drugs. It cuts both ways.

The last few years I have worked with alot of older people and people with disabilities. Alot of health care is needed by these people. I have also seen some of what is given in the US to people like these, when they don't have alot of money. Beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt we are better off here, yet we can and should be doing a hell of alot better. Looking at the US system and saying well we are better than them is what we have been doing far too long. We are not doing well enough. We should always be looking to improving.

I must note as much as I do not like Harper today he said he was going to fund a pilot project to help children's hospitals in Canada. From what I heard it sounds pretty good, and I say well done on this one Stephen

 

[Never Compromised]

I prefer to pay a little more for better service. Since other Canadians travel south for better health care, I'm obviously not alone.

The problem with this statement is that you are in a hobby that is exclusive to people with money. A very large number of Canadians simply could not drive to Buffalo and have a proceedure done. A very large number of Canadians have a problem affording to be close to loved ones when a child is at the HSC in Toronto.

While some on here could afford $1000/month in extra health insurance, that is not the issue. The issue is: as a society, what do we do about the people that live pay to pay and don't have a nest egg in case of tragedy?

Personally, I am not a supporter of a public only system, but I would rather have that, then a system that only caters to the top 10% of our society.

 

[Neverenuff$]

Just proved the point. Not a word of what the Consevatives have done, but attack the liberals. Well done I hope Harper gives you a nice biscuit and pat on the head.

Well Free trade..

best one though is the GST .. Heck even the libs liked that one..
Sheila got press time from it, they wrote a red book all about it , and hung on to it for 12 long years ..

I know I'm not supposed to mention liberals .. but damn they were bigger fans of the conservative's GST plan than the conservatives were , it was the tool they "wrestled" the defecit with !! (sic)

And didn't I see something about Mr. Mulroney being the Green-est PM ?...

 

[Neverenuff$]

While some on here could afford $1000/month in extra health insurance, that is not the issue. The issue is: as a society, what do we do about the people that live pay to pay and don't have a nest egg in case of tragedy?

Personally, I am not a supporter of a public only system, but I would rather have that, then a system that only caters to the top 10% of our society.

why can't we compomise ?... The top tier of a two tier system could subsidize and improve the lower tier ,
sure the "rich" may get the best care but the rest of us would end up with "better" care ...
I guess it sounds easy till the Politician get involved , and the cash just gets thrown into the general "troughs"

 

[Never Compromised]

why can't we compomise ?... The top tier of a two tier system could subsidize and improve the lower tier

We do not need a universal health care system in Canada. The rich are able to look after themselves, and the upper middle class are able to do that as well. The middle class could probably get by, as long as the main income winner does not suffer a huge crisis such as cancer, a serious traffic accident or a heart attack.

So why do we have a universal system? Because no one wants to pay for two systems. The middle class will not pay for a private system AND a public system. It is either all in, or no one.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Just proved the point. Not a word of what the Consevatives have done, but attack the liberals. Well done I hope Harper gives you a nice biscuit and pat on the head.

Hey clubber, that was the point. You missed the joke.

Something tells me you miss a lot of things.......

Jack Ass

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

The problem with this statement is that you are in a hobby that is exclusive to people with money. A very large number of Canadians simply could not drive to Buffalo and have a proceedure done. A very large number of Canadians have a problem affording to be close to loved ones when a child is at the HSC in Toronto.

While some on here could afford $1000/month in extra health insurance, that is not the issue. The issue is: as a society, what do we do about the people that live pay to pay and don't have a nest egg in case of tragedy?

Personally, I am not a supporter of a public only system, but I would rather have that, then a system that only caters to the top 10% of our society.

I don't disagree with you.

My point is we should not be so proud of our "free" health care system. Those with little money in this country are not being served if they need a CAT scan and have to wait 18 months for it.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Well Free trade..

best one though is the GST .. Heck even the libs liked that one..
Sheila got press time from it, they wrote a red book all about it , and hung on to it for 12 long years ..

I know I'm not supposed to mention liberals .. but damn they were bigger fans of the conservative's GST plan than the conservatives were , it was the tool they "wrestled" the defecit with !! (sic)

And didn't I see something about Mr. Mulroney being the Green-est PM ?...

How about:

Keeping us out of Kyoto

Resolving a long trade dispute

Legislation that helps reduce corruption in government.