Holocaust deniers.

[solitaria]

Lately I have been reading about names such as Zundel and Irving who are two famous holocaust deniers. What do you think of these holocaust deniers and the people that support their view?

David Irving:

"I say quite tastelessly, in fact, that more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz."

Ernst Zundel:

"For an event that was wholly created in the poisonous psychological warfare kitchens of the Second World War, run by the ministries of propaganda in many countries, not just by the British or the Americans, but also the Russians and undoubtedly the world Jewish organizations. "

 

[cyrus]

. . . David Irving, .... yet you choose to hold him in regard because of how he reinforces a belief in you that the Jews are manipulative .....Your viewpoint is extreme when you say that the Jews were/are the influencing power behind the US' decision to go to war. The reason the States went to war was to make money and to control supply and future prices of oil. Just remember, the people with influence and power who thirst for more just .....your fascist heroes who envy the power they perceive the Jews to have and what for themselves.

David Irving is not the only one; the problem is that many people of different walk of life around the world think more or less the same. They believe that Jews are master of manipulation and they have the tendency to practice the art without concern for the well beings of others!
Do you have the knowledge to analyze the route of this mystery, honestly and frankly without getting into name calling and arguments? So we all at least try to understand the problem! By the way please just don’t come out and say this is some sort of propaganda, because it is not!
All you have to do is to glance though the history of the man from the days of Moses to the modern times, from the East to the West! I am afraid you will notice that this seems to be a nagging problem for Jews of all cultures and races! Good luck
Now as for the Holocaust, the issue should really be on how to prevent it from happening again. It should not be about arguing over the actual numbers, leave that job to the historians and Scholars as for the common folks a couple of millions less are as bad as six millions or so!
I could however imagine from your riposte to the predicament as put forward above somehow may determine if we have a real chance to stop the event from recurrence because the reality is that even two thousands nukes in the hands of Zionist Israelis will not prevent the repeat of another Holocaust of some sort if the Jewish state continues with the status quote and that is pissing off everybody from sea of China to the lake Ontario!

 

[slowandeasy]

I would add that they are driven by their ignorance, jealousy and hate

 

[cyrus]

I would add that they are driven by their ignorance, jealousy and hate

Hmmm . . .Are you saying that Jews are the only industrious powerful people in world therefore they become subject to jealousy and hate? I don’t think so, try again!

 

[zydeco]

cyrus - After reading your post I can only conclude that you are one ignorant S.O.B.

 

[cyrus]

DonQuixote
Do you believe in karma? In essence that is what I am referring to!

 

[cyrus]

cyrus - After reading your post I can only conclude that you are one ignorant S.O.B.

Not as ignorant S.O.B. as you are! Now don't start that s't with me because you won't be able to catch up with me buddy!

As for the rest of you,
Ladies & Gentlemen, one suggestion . . . this is probably a very sensitive topic for many of you and if you guys don’t have the stomach for it we could stop this thread right here and let it die, It is your pick of the day!

 

[Asterix]

DonQuixote
Do you believe in karma? In essence that is what I am referring to!

Care to elucidate on this, and how it relates to this topic?

 

[strange1]

Care to elucidate on this, and how it relates to this topic?

First guess is that he feels the Jews deserve all the hate and jealosy because of all the ways they have wronged the world for thousands of years.

Either that or so many Jews are successful because of all the wrongs they have been subjected to.

Hoping it's the latter but fearing it's not.

 

[Asterix]

First guess is that he feels the Jews deserve all the hate and jealosy because of all the ways they have wronged the world for thousands of years.

Either that or so many Jews are successful because of all the wrongs they have been subjected to.

Hoping it's the latter but fearing it's not.

I took it to mean that cyrus feels because of their history, and resultant karma, the Jews had the first Holocaust coming to them, and if they don't stop "pissing everyone off", they can expect another as well. If I've misunderstood, I encourage cyrus to correct me.

 

[strange1]

More on topic, except since the creation of Israel, Jews have always been ousiders in whatever country they have lived in(the Wandering Jew), quite often with laws preventing them from participating in many aspects of society. Jews became known as moneylenders (and gained many of their steroetypical "traits") because a) Jews were prevented from having a trade or being landlords so could only be involved in limited mercantile activities to make a living, and b) Christians were religously prevented from charging interest on loans so it generally was not worth their while.

From the middle ages until modern(ish) times, Jews have been a part of society but recognisably different and therefore succeptable to becoming scapegoats. In addition, the religous view of subservience to (or accepting of) god's role as a saviour/protector meant that Jews were very reluctant to fight back, making them easy pickings. (Look at WWII where it was not untill '44 that some jews defended themselves in the Warsaw ghetto) What would be easier than for a leader to blame problems on an easily identifiable group that wouldn't fight back (The Klan in the south is another example).

The holocaust and the holocaust deniers most likely comes from the reluctance of people to blame themselves (or accept blame) for their own problems.

Having lost two wars it is easy to see how Germans would be driven to accept the shame or deny it. This pride can be expanded to other western whites (especially the aristocratic types) who had far much more in common with the Germans than the Jews. Look at the acceptance of Facism/Naziism in England in the interwar period. Even members of the Royal family were known or suspected of having sympaty for their cousins in the fatherland.

The Russians had institutionalized anti-semitism, sponsoring the pogroms whenever they wanted the peasants to blow off steam. It is even strongly believed that the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was written by one ot the Russian Royals.

The French views were really interresting in that officially Jews had full rights of citizenship since the revolution but they still did not have common acceptance (see the Dryfus Affair).

In summation, deniers come in two brands. Some are motivated purely by their racist views. Others from the view that they (or their country) could not be responsible for millions of deaths so it must be the Jews' own KARMA.

 

[strange1]

The Jews get much of the press coverage, but there were many others that
also suffered terrible losses. "Just the facts ma'm, just the facts." From Sgt. Friday,
the original Dragnet. You're too young to know the TV program. Go read a really
detailed history of WWII and you might get the drift of my argument.

The Japanese killed over 20 million Chinese.
The Russians suffered over 20 million dead.
The story of WWII is very ugly.

I have seen reruns (although they weren't my thing) and each of the groups you mentioned probably have gone relatively unnoticed for similar reasons.

The Chineese, physically and culturally are so different from western whites that many in those propoganda driven days might have had trouble sympathizing. The war in China was also small news in the US and even smaller in Europe that events such as "the Rape of Nanking" have gone relatively unnoticed. Add to that with the exception of some of the larger cities in the US (and Canada), the Chineese had such a small and recent representation in the western world. Recent events have shown that the Chineese still remember.(and probably know more about it than the Holocaust)

The western world has also spent 40 or 50 years demonizing Russia so it would not have been in the west's best interests to sympathize with them. Add to that the fact than many of the 20 million or so Russian dead, many were involved in an active combat or support role. Even Leningrad and Stalingrad had non-essential personnel evacuated at some time. The Soviet state was mobilized as a whole to fight the Facist invaders. There were a great many civilian deaths (including intentional slaughter) as well, as there was in Germany and to lesser extent England, France, and Italy.

I do see a difference between victims from a country involved in a war and those taken from within your own borders. One is shameful and tragic; the other is shameful and disgusting.

Finaly, The events in Russia and China would be less likely to be known internationaly as they were "discovered" generally by people in their own country, not an international force.

 

[strange1]

Your view is European view. The Jews were never persecuted in
the Middle East until recent time. Miamodese, the great Jewish
philosopher, was a member of the court of Saladine.

The persecution of the Jews in Europe started in, of all years,
1492. It's a very complicated and convoluted history you are
addressing.

Agreed in general, although lack of persecution did not mean equal rights.

 

[cyrus]

Agreed in general, although lack of persecution did not mean equal rights.

In MD prior to the creation of Israel, Jews always had rights and regarded very well.
In Iran, Iraq the population was very high and most were very well off, i.e., land owners, craftsmen, government clerks etc.
I.e., Iran is the resting place of many of Jewish ancestors, and their holy shrines such as tomb of Daniel, Esther and Ezra are located there. Aside from that, parts of the Old Testament have either been written in Iran or relate to it. By the way, don't forget if it wasn't for the king "Cyrus the great"
As it was written in Ezra, I and Isaiah, (44-45) and in the last Chapter of Kings, has been given the titles of Shibban and Messiah by God, freeing the Jews during the Exodus era from bondage, there probably won't be many Jew left now in the world.

In Europe however, the situation was very different because of the history of Jews & Christ besides the European of the time were ignorant as opposite to MD where it was the center of civilization and culture of the time!

 

[cyrus]

OK fine,
to answer to your Q, no I don't know who did wrong to whom, I haven't been there personally during the last 1000 years but despite of that I don’t think any group deserve to be slaughtered for any reason, be it Jews by Nazis or Armenians by Turks . . .etc.

In the mean time, if you want to call me SOB or anti-whatever go ahead, as I said before it an’t gone bother me!
Having said that lets get back to the point with no touching outburst! Shall we?!
If you read my original post at the beginning of this thread again, I wrote
David Irving is not the only one; the problem is that many people of different walk of life around the world think more or less the same. They believe that Jews are master of manipulation and they have the tendency to practice the art without concern for the well beings of others!
This is an issue that must have or could have created this nagging dilemma for the Jews over and over in the history!

(a) Do you acknowledge that this has been the major source of problem for the Jews or will you simply deny it? I am talking about the course of 1000+ yrs in different continents, within different cultures etc . . .!
Dig into the history and you find ample examples, you can start with the beginning of the time when they made the Moses so furious that they become the subject of his punishment!
(b) Now if you agree even to a small degree, my next question would be can this tendency to not concern much about others (refer to about quote) made less prevalent in the future now that the Jews have a state of their own so their success could trigger down and make new friends instead of new enemies?! This is not happening in the current state of Israel the last time I looked! There are a lot of shit going on down there for a very long time now that it an’t making many people happy around the world including their own citizens (i.e. Arab Israelis)
As I understand the Zionist agenda is very militaristic in nature against anyone they deemed anti-Jew in a hope to prevent future holocaust or suffering of Jews! Now that is where the Karma comes into play, you keep doing shit to others it may eventually comes back and bite you on the ass!
It is just a believe that I have, right or wrong!

(C) Now, if you disagree, fine then why so much problem, 100 times over? Is it everybody else’s fault?! i.e., jealously & hatred of one because of his success, right! Then I guess everyone poor hates every one rich in this world and it should not matter whether one is a Jew, Christian or a Muslim!

 

[canucklehead]

Hmmm . . .Are you saying that Jews are the only industrious powerful people in world therefore they become subject to jealousy and hate? I don’t think so, try again!

pffffffffttttt

 

[cyrus]

First guess is that he feels the Jews deserve all the hate and jealosy because of all the ways they have wronged the world for thousands of years.

Wrong!

Either that or so many Jews are successful because of all the wrongs they have been subjected to.

Hoping it's the latter but fearing it's not.

And wrong again!
Put down your kippot for a while then read my above note more carfully please!

 

[Don]

Holocaust Deniers

From my experience, most Holocaust deniers deep down know that it did happen but try to downplay/deny it because of plain dislike for Jews. The source of the dislike comes in many forms from being sick and tired of what some people consider constant whining from Jews, dislike of Israel's policies in the Mid-East (towards Paletinians, occupation of holy land, etc), plain ol' racism, and so on. Because of this dislike, they want to downgrade events that would bring sympathy towards them (like the Holocaust) even though they know it happened. It's simply to further their agenda (of hatred). I've also seen some people try to downgrade slavery as not being as bad as people think and that the slaves were treated quite well and so on and they were better off being a slave here than in Africa, etc... even though deep down they must admit that slavery was wrong.

You also see the reverse where events are exaggerated to bring more sympathy.

It's common for people to try to justify their beliefs or have the need to believe in something even when deep down they know it is false. I see it all the time in some of my religious friends

 

[strange1]

As I said, I agreed in general.

from http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Sec2.htm

The Constitution of Medina - under which the clans accepting Muhammad as the Prophet of God formed an alliance, or federation -..... The Constitution also defined the role of non-Muslims in the community. Jews, for example, were part of the community; they were dhimmis, that is, protected people, as long as they conformed to its laws. This established a precedent for the treatment of subject peoples during the later conquests. Christians and Jews, upon payment of a yearly tax, were allowed religious freedom and, while maintaining their status as non-Muslims, were associate members of the Muslim state.

from http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1772-jewsinislam.html (from 1772)
-not act or dress like moslems
- not ride horses
- not build houses taller than moslems
- not to speak unless spoken to
- no moslem slaves
- must clear the road for moslems
- no building or reparing temples

In general, they were a hell of a lot better of than their brothers in Europe but they were never equal to the ruling Moslems. Add to this that the treatment did vary. For example, Miamodese was a Spanish Jew. When the tollerant regime there was taken over by the Almohads, he was forced to flee to the east.

Also interresting is http://www.iranonline.com/History/jews-history/3.html which backs up my earlier claims re: trad and banking.

 

[strange1]

Sorry Cyrus, did you just say that the major problem for the Jews is that they have been manipulating everyone for centuries?

It's easy to see where the historical root of this is since money was the only power they could actually have, in the ME or Europe but your view is pretty close to blaming a woman for being raped.

In general, Jews have done a pretty good job of overcoming predjudice to find a way to survive. Yes, some have tried to gain personal power but for the most part, they like all other people have just lived an average life. EVERY place of power in the history of the world has contained people willing to do anything for power, the royal courts in Europe being prime examples, but you never here anyone say "Damn The Bruce and those manipulative Scots" (my actual ancestry -actualy Staurts - dont think that because someone disagrees with your views they must be a Jew - I can just understand my fellow penny pinchers LOL).