With all of the first hand reports from the Nazis themselves as well their own records and documents I find it quite difficult to see how people can still doubt what took place.Kathleen said:No, no.. not a conspiracy..lol
Just a thought. Again I ask, if the camp was at risk of allied bombing, why would you store enough high explosives to level a building?
The non- starving gaurd was a nice find, well done. (not being sarcastic)
But I have seen camp inmates who are both thin as a rail, and others who are in decent health. I think the same was true for the gaurds.
The eyewitness accounts. I find them weak for 3 reasons.
1) As soon as stories start becoming 'vivid' accounts, like colored smoke, seeing men drop cans in roof tops, huge amounts of smoke, or engines would run to silence the screams, I get sceptical.
2) When you have some in a camp who saw constant gassings, then others who saw nothing I wonder why.
3) Not matter what happened, you were just became free from a terrible time. Your captors have lost the war. What will you now tell people happened?
True, they violations of the Hague convention of 1907. Aricles 23 and beyond go into the violations. The same case could be applied to Dresdan as well. The Allies were not exactly great proponents of playing within the rules either. I find it hilarious when I hear Rusfield go on about Geneva violations by the Iraqi's and such.Vietor said:Thank you, Solitaria.
This thread functions much as a criminal jury does - we, the jurors, debate the evidence and form our opinions. The evidence comes in a wide range of sources. There is the testimony of those who planned the crime; it is overwhelmingly damning. There is the testimony of those who witnessed the crime; again, overwhelmingly damning. There is the testimony of the victims fortunate to have survived the crime; same result. There is the evidence that the perpetrators of the crime sought to cover it up, both in the form of testimony of what was left behind and testimony of what was done to destroy the evidence; same result. Finally, we consider that the photographic evidence of the crime is not unequivocal. How often is it that the perpetrators of crime so conveniently leave behind photographs of their activities? Especially when we have strong evidence of their intent to coverup the crime?
That the Holocaust occurred has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. That masses of people were gassed to death systematically at the death camps has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. That this was the subject of cold hearted calculation, planning and implementation is beyond any reasonable doubt.
By the way, HS, the dropping of atomic bombs in Japan did not constitute a violation of the Geneva Convention unless you apply retroactively an Article adopted in 1949.
strange1 said:Good, it was a conspiracy.
On the topic of "starving" Guards I've looked at some photos and the guards of Auschwitz and they don't look to be suffering. Maybe not Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heros but they sure don't seem under nourished.
http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/181-183c.html bottom right
http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/34-36b.html center and bottom
http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/34-36a.html fromt center
http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/23-26c.html bottom and left.
I am still waiting for someone to explain why all of the witnesses don't count as evidence.
solitaria said:http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocJewQn.htm
Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, October 4 and 6, 1943.
Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 323, and Himmler, Reichsfuehrer-SS - P. Padfield, Henry Holt and Co, NY, 1990, p. 469:
I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about, "the Jewish race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite clear, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them". And then they come, 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of those who talk this way has watched it, not one of them has gone through it. Most of you know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or 1,000. To have stuck it out and at the same time - apart from exceptions caused by human weakness - to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written.
I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed - and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.
[This speech was recorded; the magnetic tapes are in the National Archives in Washington, DC]
Speech by Hans Frank [Governor of occupied Poland], to German soldiers in Poland, urging them to write home.
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1946, Vol. II, p. 633-634:
In all these weeks, they [i.e., your families] will be thinking of you, saying to themselves: my God, there he sits in Poland where there are so many lice and Jews, perhaps he is hungry and cold, perhaps he is afraid to write. It would not be a bad idea to send our dear ones back home a picture, and tell them: well now, there are not so many lice and Jews any more, and conditions here in the General Government have changed and improved somewhat already. Of course, I could not eliminate all lice and Jews in only one year's time. But in the course of time, and above all, if you help me, this end will be attained. After all, it is not necessary for us to accomplish everything within a year and right away, for what would otherwise be left for those who follow us to do?
Memorandum from Gestapo Headquarters, 15 June 1944.
Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. IV, p. 1166:
In amending my directive of June 20 1944, I request that those people subject to special treatment be sent to a crematorium to be cremated if possible.
pussygalore said:As attorney for Sgt. Schultz may I stipulate that he had nothing to do with the alleged atrocities discussed in this case.
That is the most common defence of the other defendants but we have hours of movie pictures proving the defendant was in a POW camp throughout the relevant time period.beenthere said:I know nothing, I see nothing. . . . Hogannnnn!
DonQuixote said:They are driven by denial. It's all about ethnocentricity.
How could a proud and honorable people, the Germans,
the people of Bach, Beethovan, Handel, Wagner, Goethe,
Kant, Hegel and many others stoop so low as to participate
in such an atrocity.
It's ethnocentric, national pride. They are the most cultured and
most prolific of the European nations. But, they stooped so low
as to render themselves immoral.
I suggest to you that Goethe's "Faust" may be the key to their
dilemna. In a strange way he exposed the German spirit and
soul. Greatness, but with a terrible price.Germans occupied
my father's homeland. The net result. Twenty-five percent of
my people are dead.
I hold no animosity for my German breatheren. It's their cross,
not mine. I live in the present, not in the past.
Don, the Corinthian.
I think part of the point DQ was trying to make is that German society leading up to WWII, was somewhat schizophrenic. One of the most difficult things to fathom about the Holocaust was how something so perverted, could have happened in one of the most culturally advanced countries on earth. As far as responsiblity, I think a people, insofar as how able they are to protest or change where their leaders are leading them, are responsible. It is not always possible for obvious reasons, but I think the German people did turn the other way to avoid admitting what was happening, just as I believe many Americans turned a blind eye to the massacre of the Native Americans and the treatment of African Americans.Meister said:So, the German spirit and soul lead to the holocaust? And why is it the German cross to bear and not the Nazi party and its sympathizers? It is the Nazi party that gave the orders.
Or, are you saying that the Russians should bear the cross of Stalin's atrocities, the American's should bear the cross of atrocities commited against blacks, Vietnam....
Reading it with an open mind free of pre-conceived notions of what you want to believe would suffice. I think you like to generalize events in history too much in terms of what it means to the national characteristics of the people involved and are therefore bound to see the past (and a group of people) in a certain way regardless of what truly happened and that to most would seem to be denial. If you are to learn from history in any meaningful way and you do in fact search for truth then try to understand how history tells us how humanity acts for better or worse that has equal application to us all in terms of lessons learned as observers of the past and should not serve to differentiate and stereotype since that is how distrust and hate are bourne (i.e. the Jews are great manipulators).Kathleen said:solitaria - This is the first chance I've had 5 min to post and look over the additions to the thread this week. The debate has pretty much died down, but it's not fair you spend hrs of time doing research only to have it ignored.
I've had a super busy week, but will have free Friday time to look over the very well put together evidence you submitted. No matter what, I'll have a look and get back to you. It's cetainly detailed, and extensive. Way to do your homework.
And some would believe what they want to believe!strange1 said:Some people would rather ignore the truth than change their beliefs.
...despite the facts. It still doesn't change what happened.And some would believe what they want to believe!
