I have to ask the rah rah Israel crowd, does the old" since you are against Israel's foreign policy tactics that must mean you are obviously an anti Semite" argument ever get boring? come on guys come up with something original to defend your beloved state that was stolen by a bunch of racist Europeans and North Americans using a book of magical tales as their defence. Thats all Israel is and ever will be, and with time and the lovely concept of demographics will disappear into a chapter of history books.TQM said:
HRW on Iran and Syria
- Thread starter TQM
- Start date
That's a straw man.
I'm against some Israeli foreign policy.
The difference is - I'm against the policies of the Syrian govt., the Iranian govt., Hamas' leadership, and Hezbollah's leadership too.
Where you are an anti-semite isn't in your opposition to Israeli foreign policy. In fact you are welcome, if you wish to be opposed to every foreign policy decision made by Israel.
But when you state such opposition, but don't hold the same principles against other nations (or groups in power) - it's then that you turn into an anti-semite.
I know that's way too subtle a distinction for you - but it boils down to this - your anti-semitism is due to your inconsistency. You'll condemn Israel but not Syria for worse. You'll condemn Israel, but not Hezbollah for worse. You'll condemn Israel, but not condemn the barbaric murder of CanadianZahra Kazemi in an Iranian jail.
You condemn Israel, then, not because of your commitment to rights or justice - but because it's Israel. That's why you're an anti-semite.
You could have responded to this thread by piling on Iran and Syria. That's what you do on the very same threads on Israel.
The game is pretty simple. Don't pretend for a minute this is about calling you an anti-semite for your criticism of Israel. You're an anti-semite because you are inconsistent in only criticizing Israel and dismissing the same or worse criticisms of Israel's traditional enemies.
I'm against some Israeli foreign policy.
The difference is - I'm against the policies of the Syrian govt., the Iranian govt., Hamas' leadership, and Hezbollah's leadership too.
Where you are an anti-semite isn't in your opposition to Israeli foreign policy. In fact you are welcome, if you wish to be opposed to every foreign policy decision made by Israel.
But when you state such opposition, but don't hold the same principles against other nations (or groups in power) - it's then that you turn into an anti-semite.
I know that's way too subtle a distinction for you - but it boils down to this - your anti-semitism is due to your inconsistency. You'll condemn Israel but not Syria for worse. You'll condemn Israel, but not Hezbollah for worse. You'll condemn Israel, but not condemn the barbaric murder of CanadianZahra Kazemi in an Iranian jail.
You condemn Israel, then, not because of your commitment to rights or justice - but because it's Israel. That's why you're an anti-semite.
You could have responded to this thread by piling on Iran and Syria. That's what you do on the very same threads on Israel.
The game is pretty simple. Don't pretend for a minute this is about calling you an anti-semite for your criticism of Israel. You're an anti-semite because you are inconsistent in only criticizing Israel and dismissing the same or worse criticisms of Israel's traditional enemies.
gryfwad,
Since you seem to have trouble reading:
Human Rights Watch’s research found that on a number of occasions Hezbollah unjustifiably endangered Lebanese civilians by storing weapons in civilian homes, firing rockets from populated areas, and allowing its fighters to operate from civilian homes. Hezbollah also used children as active combatants, another violation of the law.
Oh - that must be just an "opinion piece" - you fuckwad. That's from the first link, pimple.
Since you seem to have trouble reading:
Human Rights Watch’s research found that on a number of occasions Hezbollah unjustifiably endangered Lebanese civilians by storing weapons in civilian homes, firing rockets from populated areas, and allowing its fighters to operate from civilian homes. Hezbollah also used children as active combatants, another violation of the law.
Oh - that must be just an "opinion piece" - you fuckwad. That's from the first link, pimple.
Yes gryfwad
It was an opinion piece. All HRW pieces are opinion pieces. They are the opinions of HRW as to the facts.
HRW is saying Hezbollah used civilian homes as weapons depots. They used children as combatants. HRW is saying those are Crimes against Humanity.
That's just HRW's opinion. Their opinion is based on fact. I share their opinion.
But please do tell us, gryfwad - do you think HRW is wrong on these matters? Please do tell us what you think. Feel free to tell us how HRW got its facts wrong. Please do tell us how HRW is biased against Hezbollah. It will make for a good read. Then, we'll work on Amnesty International.
By the way, gryfwad - I'm a long time supporter of both HRW and Amnesty International. So you better make your story good. I'm betting you don't have the balls.
It was an opinion piece. All HRW pieces are opinion pieces. They are the opinions of HRW as to the facts.
HRW is saying Hezbollah used civilian homes as weapons depots. They used children as combatants. HRW is saying those are Crimes against Humanity.
That's just HRW's opinion. Their opinion is based on fact. I share their opinion.
But please do tell us, gryfwad - do you think HRW is wrong on these matters? Please do tell us what you think. Feel free to tell us how HRW got its facts wrong. Please do tell us how HRW is biased against Hezbollah. It will make for a good read. Then, we'll work on Amnesty International.
By the way, gryfwad - I'm a long time supporter of both HRW and Amnesty International. So you better make your story good. I'm betting you don't have the balls.
Sorry to have to correct you again but the first link is an editorial in a newspaper. That's clearly stated. It also says Commentary at top. It's not an HRW report.TQM said:
By the way, the more comprehensive report you cited in haste puts you in position to prove your own credibility as the reports confirm that Israel located a naval base beside civilian population and a hospital. It further confirms that Israel located artillery batteries adjacent to the civilian villages Zarit and Arab al-Aramshe. According to you, these would be serious war crimes.
So is your outrage selective?
first, gryfwad,
I'm quite capable of criticizing Israel. I've no stake in the matter!
The only difference is that I like to be a) truthful; and b) consistent in my principles. Both of these elude you.
Second - my first link is to an Human Rights Watch document written by Sarah Leah Whitson - of Human Rights Watch. You're wrong.
So now please do tell me if you think Ms. Whitson and HRW got the facts wrong. I'm waiting.
I'm quite capable of criticizing Israel. I've no stake in the matter!
The only difference is that I like to be a) truthful; and b) consistent in my principles. Both of these elude you.
Second - my first link is to an Human Rights Watch document written by Sarah Leah Whitson - of Human Rights Watch. You're wrong.
So now please do tell me if you think Ms. Whitson and HRW got the facts wrong. I'm waiting.
before you go spouting off about what an anti Semite I am, ya might do a little research and check my posts, plenty which have gotten on the case of the Syrian government for the treatment of its own people and their brutality towards the people of Lebanon, plenty on the case of Hezbollah for being puppets of Iran and Syria and not being loyal to the Lebanese state and people first and foremost, and Hamas for its stupidity and short sightedness in continuing a violent struggle they cant win militarily against Israel.TQM said:
Its just a favorite and intellectually lazy argument that anyone who disagrees with Israel is branded the label of anti Semite or self hating Jew when all they really are is disagreeing with the extreme right wing movement in Israel, that at least half of the Israeli population would oppose, so are they anti Semites too??
TQM said:
The HRW report contradicts the opinion piece. It's there in black and white for you to see. We are all waiting for you to reconcile that.
As for your consistency, you've yet to prove it. Actually, your consistency is very much in doubt because you are failing to condemn Israel's placing of military personnel and equipment adjacent to civilian structures. Either that means you don't believe HRW (in that case what's the point of this thread) or you don't stand by the principles you've espoused. In that case, you are like every other little hypocrite for Israel.
This should help you in quest to regain credibility:TQM said:
This report will tell you that at no time did Hezbollah use civilians as human shields. It also states there are no instances of Hezbollah weapons or forces anywhere near any of the lebanese civilians murdered by Israel.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm#_Toc142299220
"Since the start of the conflict, Israeli forces have consistently launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military gain but excessive civilian cost. In dozens of attacks, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as return strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.
The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.
By consistently failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians, Israel has violated one of the most fundamental tenets of the laws of war: the duty to carry out attacks on only military targets. The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents; the extent of the pattern and the seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes."
from that link, gryfwad,
Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties.
That's crystal clear. You lose.
Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties.
That's crystal clear. You lose.
no scouser,
that's not good enough.
I frankly don't see your posts that you claim to have written - and I do read you.
But even if true, that's not good enough.
The fact remains that when you see an anti-Israel post, your inclination is to pile on. When you saw my top post - which was deliberately styled to be identical to the anti-Israel posts - really just to mock them - and you responded quite differently.
Check a mirror.
that's not good enough.
I frankly don't see your posts that you claim to have written - and I do read you.
But even if true, that's not good enough.
The fact remains that when you see an anti-Israel post, your inclination is to pile on. When you saw my top post - which was deliberately styled to be identical to the anti-Israel posts - really just to mock them - and you responded quite differently.
Check a mirror.
There is news footage of hezbolla rocket attacks from schools and homes out there. One tactic regularly used is firing rockets from the back of trucks in residential areas and then leaving prior ot the retaliation
scouser has posted critically about Syria's involvement (and other politics) in Lebanon. It's not often but he has.TQM said:
That being said, he does seem to get a large amount of satisfaction from bashing Israel.
Can I post this one here or does it deserve it's own thread.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/987674.html
Hey fucker ! how about America's unconditional support for Israel ??????TQM said:
How about Harper's unconditional support for Isreal !!!!
what do you call it You little one !!!!
While you are confronting and namecalling posters here based on their politicial opinions about Israel and not much we see from your posts against uncondtional support of America to Israel says it all about you ,
You little one and only one !!!!!
I am done
You are in full scale retreat from most of your claims in your mad dash declare yourself a winner here and save some face.TQM said:
Lets remember your claims:
TQM said:
None of your evidence supports the "children as combatants" claim.TQM said:
None of your evidence supports the "Human shield" claim.
In fact, HRW pronounced: "The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack."
Now it's time for you to answer for your silence about Israel's actions.
gryfwad,
The links provided list everything I said. Children used as combatants, homes as weapons depots (which means humans were used as shields).
Human Rights Watch’s research found that on a number of occasions Hezbollah unjustifiably endangered Lebanese civilians by storing weapons in civilian homes, firing rockets from populated areas, and allowing its fighters to operate from civilian homes. Hezbollah also used children as active combatants, another violation of the law.
I'll keep quoting it until you get it.
More on Hezbollah:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE02/026/2006/en/dom-MDE020262006en.html
Hezbollah attacked hospitals found here:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/05/lebano13921.htm
Here's another nice passage critical of both sides, and pointing out Hezbollah's firing rockets from civilian areas:
Human Rights Watch research established that, on some limited occasions, Hezbollah fighters have attempted to store weapons near civilian homes and have fired rockets from areas where civilians live. However, such practices do not justify the IDF’s failure to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
On July 15, for example, a group of villagers from Marwahin left the area in a convoy, in part because Hezbollah was attempting to store weapons behind their homes, and residents feared a retaliatory IDF strike.9 Two rockets believed to have been fired from Israeli helicopters struck a white pick-up and a passenger car in the convoy on the road between the villages of Chamaa and Biyada, killing twenty-one civilians (see “Attacks on Fleeing Civilians”). A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF.10 While the villagers’ flight could be attributed in part to Hezbollah’s unlawful attempt to store weapons in Marwahin—the main reason for flight was the Israeli warning to evacuate within two hour—Human Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest that Hezbollah fighters were near the civilian convoy when it got hit.
Christian villagers fleeing the village of `Ain Ebel have also complained about Hezbollah tactics that placed them at risk, telling the New York Times that “Hezbollah came to [our village] to shoot its rockets.… They are shooting from between our houses.”11 `Ain Ebel was a former stronghold for the Israeli-backed South Lebanese Army (SLA), a force opposed to Hezbollah. According to an official from `Ain Ebel, some villagers told him that Hezbollah had fired at Israel from certain positions close to their houses, although so far Human Rights Watch has heard no reports of Hezbollah entering any village homes. No villagers have died but a number have been injured (mostly from broken glass), and Israeli fire had destroyed roughly eighty of 400 houses, he said.12
Human Rights Watch is hardly asserting that all Israeli strikes have targeted civilians. There are obviously many cases in which Israeli forces attacked legitimate military targets, such as rocket launchers and dug-in military positions. However, in the cases documented below, no apparent military objective existed in the civilian houses that Israel attacked. Villagers interviewed privately in one-on-one settings stated credibly and consistently that Hezbollah was not present in their homes or the vicinity when the attacks took place, and Human Rights Watch found no other evidence to suggest that Hezbollah had been there.
Here's that link:
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm#_Toc142299223
Independent accounts:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Full retreat, eh?
The links provided list everything I said. Children used as combatants, homes as weapons depots (which means humans were used as shields).
Human Rights Watch’s research found that on a number of occasions Hezbollah unjustifiably endangered Lebanese civilians by storing weapons in civilian homes, firing rockets from populated areas, and allowing its fighters to operate from civilian homes. Hezbollah also used children as active combatants, another violation of the law.
I'll keep quoting it until you get it.
More on Hezbollah:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE02/026/2006/en/dom-MDE020262006en.html
Hezbollah attacked hospitals found here:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/05/lebano13921.htm
Here's another nice passage critical of both sides, and pointing out Hezbollah's firing rockets from civilian areas:
Human Rights Watch research established that, on some limited occasions, Hezbollah fighters have attempted to store weapons near civilian homes and have fired rockets from areas where civilians live. However, such practices do not justify the IDF’s failure to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
On July 15, for example, a group of villagers from Marwahin left the area in a convoy, in part because Hezbollah was attempting to store weapons behind their homes, and residents feared a retaliatory IDF strike.9 Two rockets believed to have been fired from Israeli helicopters struck a white pick-up and a passenger car in the convoy on the road between the villages of Chamaa and Biyada, killing twenty-one civilians (see “Attacks on Fleeing Civilians”). A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF.10 While the villagers’ flight could be attributed in part to Hezbollah’s unlawful attempt to store weapons in Marwahin—the main reason for flight was the Israeli warning to evacuate within two hour—Human Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest that Hezbollah fighters were near the civilian convoy when it got hit.
Christian villagers fleeing the village of `Ain Ebel have also complained about Hezbollah tactics that placed them at risk, telling the New York Times that “Hezbollah came to [our village] to shoot its rockets.… They are shooting from between our houses.”11 `Ain Ebel was a former stronghold for the Israeli-backed South Lebanese Army (SLA), a force opposed to Hezbollah. According to an official from `Ain Ebel, some villagers told him that Hezbollah had fired at Israel from certain positions close to their houses, although so far Human Rights Watch has heard no reports of Hezbollah entering any village homes. No villagers have died but a number have been injured (mostly from broken glass), and Israeli fire had destroyed roughly eighty of 400 houses, he said.12
Human Rights Watch is hardly asserting that all Israeli strikes have targeted civilians. There are obviously many cases in which Israeli forces attacked legitimate military targets, such as rocket launchers and dug-in military positions. However, in the cases documented below, no apparent military objective existed in the civilian houses that Israel attacked. Villagers interviewed privately in one-on-one settings stated credibly and consistently that Hezbollah was not present in their homes or the vicinity when the attacks took place, and Human Rights Watch found no other evidence to suggest that Hezbollah had been there.
Here's that link:
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm#_Toc142299223
Independent accounts:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Full retreat, eh?
